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YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

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Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#611

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The parent comment to the subject of my response established the scope of this discussion as including legacy media in general, one comment invoked the NYT, and I can bring up another publication as well. I suppose you can, but your comment needed a better transition to make it clear what you were doing. The original comment brought CNN's coverage of a topic (in an unverifiable way) to make a general claim that "ma…

> What else would you have them do? The video was public well before Grosskreutz admitted to drawing his weapon at Rittenhouse as he approached him, the Facebook post after the incident was known about. They should’ve informed their audience of these facts more so than they were informed of Grosskreutz’s fear of his life, however the latter was the most broadly disseminated piece of info by being a headline item. “Vi…

> The video was public well before Grosskreutz admitted to drawing his weapon at Rittenhouse as he approached him, the Facebook post after the incident was known about. They should’ve informed their audience of these facts more so than they were informed of Grosskreutz’s fear of his life, however the latter was the most broadly disseminated piece of info by being a headline item.

> It’s very simple. A WP reader is more likely to find out from being their audience that Grosskreutz feared for his life than the other facts that I’ve mention that are much more interesting and critical to the case, and it’s by design.

I'm obviously not following this story as closely as you. However, I think the issue here may be that you wished you read a different story than the Washington Post was actually writing. What it looks like they were writing was an account of this Grosskreutz's testimony, and his accounting of his mental state at the time may have been the most newsworthy part of that. It seems like you want something more like a Wikipedia article offering a definitive account of the event based all known sources (e.g. "the video", "the Facebook post"), which is not what the article you linked actually was. If I want a hammer, but have a screwdriver, it's not the screwdriver's fault for not being a hammer.

Furthermore, you're almost exclusively focused on a headline, which can never tell the full story. Usually there are multiple legitimate possibilities for a headline, and there's no perfect one that will satisfy everyone.

>> That's obviously false, since the claim is incoherent when applied to your example. If it were true, why would they have bothered to correct the headline?

> But no, your response completely missed my main point, they don’t have to not update it, dissemination of a certain piece of information in terms of its reach can be diminished without it reaching zero. Statements can be used push a false narrative without being outright untrue. There are more tactful ways to mislead than simply lying, obviously. Edit: To answer your question, to enable the defense that you’ve just made

That's getting into paranoid conspiracy territory. It's pretty unbelievable that the Washington Post would be trying to mislead, but then fix it to "enable the defense that [I've] just made." The actual evidence here is pointing to a different theory that better fits the evidence than that one (i.e. the Washington Post headline writer is trying to get it right, but it's an iterative process).

Now, don't get me wrong. It's totally believable that they have good intentions to report the truth, but, being human, also have biases and other constraints that subvert those intentions to a degree (and may be particularly irksome to those with different biases), but it's going way too far to attribute malicious intent to them.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#612

Is it possible for us to put aside the edgelord screeching over censorship and instead talk rationally about content distribution regulations, required public APIs, and using the Post Office for things like email/videos/blogs/PGP keys/etc?

This sounds interesting. Can you please elaborate?

I think "Why is it noteworthy that YouTube took down some content?" is a much more interesting start to discussion. (as opposed to "I am mad that something was taken down by YouTube")

To elaborate, It is noteworthy because YouTube is essentially the de-facto monopoly video host on the Internet. From there, we have basically two main paths of discussion:

1) We should do nothing 2) We should force change on that monopoly to either: 2a) break it up 2b) control its actions 2c) nurture competition

I think that 2c is the topic with most interesting discussion because the core issue is deeply connected with the general difficulty involved in existing online outside of "walled gardens". What does "nurturing" a potential competitor to YouTube actually involve? It could potentially be oblique changes that result in easier self-hosting or easier inter-system integration for basic communication like contacts/messages/email.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The closed nature of these companies feeds into this sort of thing, though. A frequent complaint of channel owners is that they aren't told why they've received strikes against their channels. Google also makes it incredibly difficult to submit feedback about their platforms. And any time something questionable or unfavorable arises, they just claim that it's the mysterious will of their overly-complicated algorithms…

I'm not arguing that there's no censorship. All platforms that have user submitted content have censoring to varying extents, including this website. What I'm saying is that there's no conclusive proof there's some sort of grand conspiracy at work here. [1] First link says certain types of conservative media is blacklisted. However it's not like there isn't thousands of conservative videos on YouTube. [2] Your second…

>What I'm saying is that there's no conclusive proof there's some sort of grand conspiracy at work here.

Could you define what you mean by "grand conspiracy"? And what conclusive proof of it would look like?

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#614
post #429

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about censoring Dislikes? This is in progress now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxOuG8jMIgI&t=1s

censoring seems like a strong word. it's likely some automated system that based on some frequency analysis detecting whether the dislikes were authentic or not (by some defn of 'authentic'). Without such systems it's trivial to just 'clickfraud' relevancy systems out of whack. Of course Google has has a long record of playing cat/mouse games with this type of behavior due to the entire SEO industry who would manipul…

What makes you think censorship ceases to be censorship when it is automated?

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#615
post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You condone posting false information freely while impersonating credible organizations, and assert that the people fooled by this are the problem and not the liar? I don’t get that stance, but more importantly: why is this relevant to anything in discussion here?

The post your originally responded to claimed that YouTube was taken down legitimate sources of information. You then claimed they are false information as why they are taken down or deserves to be taken down. My point it regardless if it is true it should be shown and not censored. I never mentioned anything about impersonation and said the opposite of what you are questioning.

> I never mentioned anything about impersonation and said the opposite of what you are questioning

Surely in the modern disinformation environment you are joking when you write "[l]et the company be sued for making false claims" as if that is a moral justification to allow bad actors a platform. (If not, please search court cases relating to Fox News being sued for lying and their subsequent incredibly ironic justifications.) I understand what you think it is - an appeal to authority - but it's laughably naive. How many spreaders of misinformation during this pandemic faced any repercussion at all?

Intentionally spreading misinformation about a pandemic, or for that matter any time one spreads known misinformation in order to manipulate others, should be harshly condemned as morally despicable, and also made impossible wherever possible. It is clear people will act in their short term interest wherever possible, and I would not describe "social isolation" or most other appropriate measures as fitting that bucket.

Finally, before you argue that I shouldn't support "censorship" from unregulated big tech, please know that I fully agree and I believe free speech to be an important concept. I find it unjustifiable and deeply concerning how analogous being removed from FaceTwitTube is to being censored / silenced / "cancelled", but I refuse to act as if the principal of freedom means you should be able to use web technologies to maliciously act against others.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#616

I think at this point we can just expect this stuff. The ridiculousness of it, though. The rekieta law stream (which is fantastic , btw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7YXd2M5E-8 ) has anywhere from 4-12 active lawyers giving commentary and context to everything that is happening. This is exactly the type of thing we dreamed about when we were first creating the internet. However: often times these smaller independ…

Fantastic in that they frequently promote JackPosobiec? Even on their Twitter you can see that they retweeting #PizzaGate supporters.

I can't tell you how many times they mocked one of the prosecutors for their weight. I actually do think this is a clear case of self-defense, but if you have to make fun of someone for their weight then you prob don't have a very good point.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#617

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why everyone should read RMS's Right to Read story. Its not just about censoring the output, they want to censor our inputs too! While the RMS parable is less about censorship and more about drm its still relevant. [1] Unfortunately there are a lot of people who are so bought into the tribalistic dialectic that, in the more recent version, they heard about all the censoring, they saw the people being censored…

>Hitchens on freedom of speech, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY&t=0 Interesting to watch this with hindsight and see how wrong he was about Religion and why they were censorious.

Could you expound on what you mean? I must have missed it.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Hitchens on freedom of speech, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2uzEM0ugY&t=0 Interesting to watch this with hindsight and see how wrong he was about Religion and why they were censorious.

Could you expound on what you mean? I must have missed it.

He made the point that religious organisations tried to restrict freedom of speech in order to silence activist groups they didn't agree with (which at the time was true), but also suggested a causal relationship between the fact that they held "primitive" beliefs and their willingness to censor.

If you look at how society has evolved over the last 15 years, the opposite has come true. Activists are successfully limiting speech they find offensive through legislation and intimidation, and one of the strongest defenders of "full" freedom of speech has now become the religious far-right.

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with the notion of "full" freedom of speech (which we don't actually have in Australia; only an implied right to freedom of political communication to the extent that is necessary to keep democracy running), but you can't deny that religion is no longer the enemy of free speech.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#619
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The post your originally responded to claimed that YouTube was taken down legitimate sources of information. You then claimed they are false information as why they are taken down or deserves to be taken down. My point it regardless if it is true it should be shown and not censored. I never mentioned anything about impersonation and said the opposite of what you are questioning.

> I never mentioned anything about impersonation and said the opposite of what you are questioning Surely in the modern disinformation environment you are joking when you write "[l]et the company be sued for making false claims" as if that is a moral justification to allow bad actors a platform. (If not, please search court cases relating to Fox News being sued for lying and their subsequent incredibly ironic justifi…

Misinformation is not impersonation. That is very different, understand? Anyways misinformation is rarely intentional, it is purely bias. Those people usually believe something is true and they are just wrong and there is hardly any harm in that. The thing is companies make themselves arbiters of truth and are wrong often as well, and by silencing debate they cause much more damage when they are wrong than random idiots. It is akin to the church silencing Galileo or banning Copernicus’s books on heliocentric theory because they went against mainstream science at the time, but they turned out to be correct. The point is these companies do not have scientists and do not have the latest data and act rashly and quickly enforcing government laws that we have all found from COVID to be wrong and to constantly change. Yet the damage they cause was already done.

Re: YouTube takes down independent court livestreams

#620
post #615

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I never mentioned anything about impersonation and said the opposite of what you are questioning Surely in the modern disinformation environment you are joking when you write "[l]et the company be sued for making false claims" as if that is a moral justification to allow bad actors a platform. (If not, please search court cases relating to Fox News being sued for lying and their subsequent incredibly ironic justifi…

Misinformation is not impersonation. That is very different, understand? Anyways misinformation is rarely intentional, it is purely bias. Those people usually believe something is true and they are just wrong and there is hardly any harm in that. The thing is companies make themselves arbiters of truth and are wrong often as well, and by silencing debate they cause much more damage when they are wrong than random idi…

Pathetic response. Misdirection, bending half the points made, ignoring the rest. Go away, stop trying to argue antivax stance is as valid as Galileo’s literal science, the data is clear
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