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Divorce does funny things

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Re: Divorce does funny things

#301

Post by rich_sasha »

rsj_hn wrote: post #239
rich_sasha wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, for one, I'm not claiming that religious affiliation is a sole determinant of future success. Also, Prussia was subsequently steam-rolled by the USSR machine. But compare general attitudes in France, Italy, Spain vs. Netherlands and the Nordics. Or Austria vs. Germany. I think the overall point is quite valid. If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical, compared to a…

> If you look at a whole host of societal norms in the US, they will be quite puritanical Honestly, I don't see this and think it's both bad history and bad social commentary. Cities all across the country let people walk into a store and steal whatever they want without prosecution. Homeless people defecating in city squares. Higher levels of corruption and bribery than in Europe. Much more more crime and lawlessnes…

I don't really want to be arguing this point anymore. But some things are maybe worth pointing out.

One, I think in modern use "puritanical" doesn't really mean literally specific to the Puritans. They were a fringe group even in their heyday. Rather, it's a wider characterisation of certain protestant churches, Lutheran and Calvinist come to mind too. These emphasise a hard work ethos, education, and de-emphasise "earthly pleasures" in whatever guise. Certainly that's how I [ab]use it in this context.

So yes, while actual Puritans were a small fraction of the US melting pot, plenty of conservative protestants joined them. In this [1] Wikipedia table, you can see US population in 1790. If you narrow focus to Europeans, you're hard-pressed to find any Catholics there! Ulster Scottish/Irish are protestant, Germans may include some Catholics, then there's the French and that's it.

> It might be interesting to note that historically the U.S. was viewed (by Europeans) as a corrupt, lawless country

I couldn't help but think that the US gangs (at least those that made it to popular culture) were Italian and Irish.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_immigration_to_the_...

Re: Divorce does funny things

#302

Post by vmception »

llampx wrote: post #280
vmception wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been thinking that workforce gender equality would happen faster if men had a predictable choice of being subsidized in heterosexual relationships. I think an even distribution of people would choose that. Seems a lot of energy is spent on not considering how the funnels are different for men and women, and how that factors into dilution of the workforce pipeline by gender initially and over time. My thoughts ar…

Everyone wants gender equality but no one wants to date a man earning less than them.

I’ve seen couples support each other taking turns going to school, but there was the expectation of becoming a dual income couple and even then they were together as economic equals beforehand

I can think of one or two couples where the woman was a high level executive with a broke artist waiting for their big break. I would actually dare extrapolate that to an extreme where highly economically unequals get together.

But I want to see something more mundane. Like a single earning woman is a UPS driver keeping a man that is so enamored with her ability to provide. Because I’ve seen that with the gender roles reversed, and that attractive woman could have been a live in partner with anyone. This would not be predictable for men in heterosexual relationships right now.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#303

Post by mensetmanusman »

acoard wrote: post #284
lm28469 wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I felt like I didn't actually know what happened in the past, so I didn't know who I was in the present, and the future I was working towards was gone. It was existentially disorienting. I feel like it happens a lot in modern relationships. People become so interdependent and build themselves and their identities propped against each-other (to the point of neglecting families and friends even), so much that when it…

> ~50% of married couple divorce That figure is outdated and I'd challenge what it represents. Here's more up to date info: >The most recent data we have from the 2019 American Community Survey puts the rate at 14.9 divorces per 1,000 marriages, the lowest number since 1970. [0] Further, the "50% of marriages end in divorce" is heavily skewed because it includes serial divorces/remarriages. If 5 couples marry for lif…

The increasing percentage of non-divorcing marriages might be self-selecting in a sense since it is now socially acceptable to never get married, so we miss out on ‘breakups’ that are long/medium term. (E.g. non-married couples sleeping together for 5 years and having no children and then having a horrible breakup is more likely today than 100 years ago, and they are lost in the divorce statistic).

Re: Divorce does funny things

#304

Post by Zababa »

boredtofears wrote: post #254
throwaway211116 wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It as a "thing" for those that have an unhealthy attachment style. Those in such situations will tend to be controlling and suspicious of every minor thing in order to fend of the possibility someone else "infiltrating" the relationship. Is is the typical scenario where one partner tries to isolate the other from their social circles. Depending on the culture, the fear is that such "emotional cheating" will either ev…

That is a complete red-pillesque reductive explanation that I'd expect to hear out of a MGTOW style community. Intimacy happens at more than just the physical level, and most people reserve some types of intimacy (physical or emotional) for their significant other. When you cross the boundary of intimacy you normally set for people other than your significant other with someone else, that can easily be interpreted as…

> When you cross the boundary of intimacy you normally set for people other than your significant other with someone else, that can easily be interpreted as disingenuous or betraying to your SO.

So for example, going on dates with someone else than your SO? I can see how that would be betraying/cheating in a way, though I'm not sure if "emotional cheating" is a good way to express it.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#305

Post by boredtofears »

Zababa wrote: post #304
boredtofears wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is a complete red-pillesque reductive explanation that I'd expect to hear out of a MGTOW style community. Intimacy happens at more than just the physical level, and most people reserve some types of intimacy (physical or emotional) for their significant other. When you cross the boundary of intimacy you normally set for people other than your significant other with someone else, that can easily be interpreted as…

> When you cross the boundary of intimacy you normally set for people other than your significant other with someone else, that can easily be interpreted as disingenuous or betraying to your SO. So for example, going on dates with someone else than your SO? I can see how that would be betraying/cheating in a way, though I'm not sure if "emotional cheating" is a good way to express it.

Yes, that's a great example. I'm not sure if the term emotional cheating is the correct one but that's how I've heard examples like that one described before.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#306

Post by lordnacho »

throwaway211116 wrote: post #281
lordnacho wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry for expressing it this way, but what's naive is thinking your colleague is loyal. It is much simpler to just consider that he hasn't found a situation to screw you and the rest of the team yet, and that when such a situation happens, there's a chance he will act accordingly. To me he has simply been unmasked as someone who is doing whatever he is currently incentivized to do, rather than someone who respects ag…

What is even more naive is thinking there are no other colleagues "that they haven't found a situation to screw you and the rest of the team yet, and that when such a situation happens, there's a chance they will act accordingly". Just because you do not know whether someone cheated on their spouse does not mean they did or didn't or would or wouldn't. It means you don't know. And just because someone did or was will…

The point is you now have information on that one guy. You won't know who the other cheaters are, but you know this one.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#307

Post by Tras884 »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #268
DeathArrow wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you have much to do with family court you'd fully understand why suicide is a way out for men treated like sources of money with little other value. That depends on the country. But if I'd live in US I wouldn't marry without a prenuptial agreement.

In most states prenups only apply to assets you had before marriage.

This, and nothing prevents an ex-spouse to "challenge" the prenup. If you are the wealthier one, you will have to pay for your ex attorney's fees on top of yours. Lawyers on both sides will play this game, filing motion and racking up your bills until the wealthier spouse (usually the men is completely dried up).

See the current case of Dr. Dre which has to pay $1.5M of his wife's attorneys fees as she is challenging their prenup : https://www.complex.com/music/dr-dre-ordered-to-pay-1-millio...

For Dr. Dre who is a billionaire it is a painful lesson. For most of the average middle class men, you will end up broke sleeping in your car. Bitter women can use this "scorched earth technique" as a revenge because they know that at the end of the battle, once all the family's assets have been spent on lawyers, the wife will still get spouse and child support as a safety net.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#308

Post by Tras884 »

ameminator wrote: post #219

It's surprising to me that this article, which was mostly about the life of a man on an oil rig, could inspire such discussion about divorce. Obviously, divorce touches on a very fundamental part of many people's lives (especially, it seems, for men) - and we so rarely discuss it. It's amazing to me that there are so few places to talk about this, that the comments section on a short character piece (which in all hon…

Our society doesn't have much incentive in speaking about things which are seen as negative like death or divorce.

Marrying and having kids is also a pillar of the economy / consumption. Having multiple kids and spending several hundreds of thousands of dollars (in the US) between school, healthcare, nanny, sports gears, clothes drives the economic machine.

If men knew the dire consequences of divorce and stopped marrying and having kids, the whole GDP would take a hit.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#309

Post by [deleted] »

bradlys wrote: post #289

I can say with great confidence - do not get married. Do not live in a common law state. You will very likely regret it immensely. If I had been legally married to my ex - I would’ve been raked over the coals. I could see myself being the man on that rig. She contributed nothing to our relationship (financially or emotionally) and I put her through college while she didn’t work or pay for anything. Yet, even if I sho…

[deleted]

Re: Divorce does funny things

#310

Post by Tras884 »

bradlys wrote: post #289

I can say with great confidence - do not get married. Do not live in a common law state. You will very likely regret it immensely. If I had been legally married to my ex - I would’ve been raked over the coals. I could see myself being the man on that rig. She contributed nothing to our relationship (financially or emotionally) and I put her through college while she didn’t work or pay for anything. Yet, even if I sho…

Upvoted, unfortunately it happened to me. I out-earned my spouse by 4x and lost everything when she decided she wasn't happy. Do not expect any gratitude : You have no idea who your ex-wife until you meet her in family court.

My ex wife took half of our (my) assets (including my 401k).

The lawyers took what was left as I was fighting to prevent her from moving away 3'000 miles with our kids (I had to pay for both her and my lawyer) In the end my ex wife won her move away. I lost my kids and I am now stuck paying more than half my salary in child support + child support add-ons such as private school, nannies, healthcare. The remaining of my salary is spent on travel across the country once a month to be able to see my kids.

It is a very risk bet... you don't have much to win and a lot to loose if you are a men (custody) and the higher earner.

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