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Re: undefined

#31
post #21
post #9

200 times GNP? Unlikely. Jared Diamond's book by the same name? That's not very specific if you don't know the name of the book. Is it "Iceland’s ninth century agrarian collapse?" Also she uses million where she probably meant billion (the author is American and she addresses Americans, so American millions should be what she's using). Otherwise, if her facts are correct then it is a very interesting case. I'm partic…

The book is called "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed", and it covers the collapse of Greenland Norse society, not the collapse of Iceland, as the article claims.

Collapse does spend a fair amount of time discussing Iceland precisely because the society there did not collapse in the same way as the similar society in Greenland even though they had a serious ecological disaster caused by the application of farming techniques suitable for the heavy soils of Scandinavia and the British Isles to the light volcanic soils of Iceland.

Arguably Collapse is just as much about societies that avoid collapse as it is about those that did disappear.

Re: undefined

#32
post #3

Beware: This article is filled with factual errors. I was making a list as I went along, and when I afterwards read the comments section I realized I had overlooked many more. That does not by itself affect the validity of the author's overarching thesis, but if someone can't be bothered to get their basic facts straight (e.g. Iceland's EU membership status), it casts serious doubt on their ability to perform the muc…

Who cares if Iceland is a member or almost a member. That's not the point of the article. Can we discuss the main point please, that is a country's population refusing to bail out the criminals of the financial sector.

Re: undefined

#33
post #3

Beware: This article is filled with factual errors. I was making a list as I went along, and when I afterwards read the comments section I realized I had overlooked many more. That does not by itself affect the validity of the author's overarching thesis, but if someone can't be bothered to get their basic facts straight (e.g. Iceland's EU membership status), it casts serious doubt on their ability to perform the muc…

Who cares if Iceland is a member or almost a member. That's not the point of the article. Can we discuss the main point please, that is a country's population refusing to bail out the criminals of the financial sector.

I find that if an article has a glaring factual error in its first paragraph it does rather undermine its overall credibility.

Re: undefined

#34
There are too many factual errors in this piece, and too much generalization and emotion, for it to belong here.

It's a very interesting subject -- at what point does the population itself disavow huge problems created by faulty systems they got stuck in? But the author doesn't add much light to the subject, only a lot of heat.

Re: undefined

#35
I'm Icelandic, here are a few notes from the top of my head.

-- Iceland is not an EU member. Iceland is a part of EFTA (European Free Trade Association) and Schengen (border control) but not a full member. An application to join the European Union has been filed by the Icelandic government but it is generally considered to be a first step in negotiations as opposed to being a commitment to join.

-- Iceland did not go bankrupt. At no time did the Icelandic government default. Support from the IMF (International Monetary Fund) and the other Scandinavian nations along with cutbacks in government spending and tax raises prevented that. The Icelandic National Bank did at one point go "technically" bankrupt but was bailed out by the government.

-- The currency in Iceland is the krona (ISK) not the Euro.

-- The Icesave accounts where created by Landsbankinn to increase deposits and liquidity and to reduce reliance on long term financing, they were not designed to "attract foreign investors". The interest rate was about 9% and they were mostly popular with individuals and local councils looking for short term interest on on-hand cash.

-- The correct names of the Icelandic banks where Landsbanki, Kaupthing and Glitnir. They are now named Landsbanki, Arion bank and Islandsbanki respectively.

-- While I agree that there was protest I think that using the word "riot" is overkill. I think that what stands out is that a group of young activists were arrested for trying to enter the parliament against the orders of the police and that windows in the parliament building were broken by stone throwing. A couple of thousand people gather outside the parliament building for a few days to make noise and listen to speeches.

-- The public voted against the Icesave deal because the there were unresolved legal issues around it. The EU/EFTA legislation states that each member state must set up a deposit-insurance fund to cover losses caused to depositors in case of bank bankruptcy. The legislation does not mandate that the government insure the deposits, only that the deposit-insurance fund is correctly set up. The Icelandic government did set up the fund in accordance with the legislation and therefore there was doubt as to whether or not the Icelandic government was legally liable for the Icesave deposits to begin with. The problem was that if Iceland's interpretation of the law would be confirmed the whole banking system in Europe would have been at risk, since it would have meant that there was no effective security in place for depositors. Therefore there was tremendous pressure on both sides to resolve the matter without going to the EFTA court. The Icelandic people felt that the legal ambiguity on the legality of holding the Icelandic government responsible meant that if any repayment was to be done it should be shouldered by both parties. The deal the British and Dutch authorities pushed was in no way fair, with the interest rate being significantly higher than the long term rates of the ECB (European Central Bank).

-- The consensus in Iceland was and is that the Icesave debt should be repaid (if only for moral reasons) - but only on fair terms and according to EU legislation.

-- The statement "they decided to draft a new constitution that would free the country from the exaggerated power of international finance and virtual money" is total fabrication. Re-working the constitution has been on the agenda in Iceland for the last 10 years with various committees putting forth suggestions. The only difference is that after the awakening that followed the crash it was decided to have a national referendum to allow people to vote a special Constitutional Council. The council actually did it's work in a very transparent manner, using Facebook and other social media to publish drafts and gather feedback. The newly created constitution is currently waiting for parliamentary updates and approval (see http://stjornlagarad.is/english/).

-- There is a misconception that the people of Iceland rose up and refused to bail out the banks. The Icelandic government has spent billions of dollars to save the financial system resulting in higher taxes and cuts in public service. The big difference is that instead of using the bailouts to save existing companies the government created new legal entities that took over the obligations and assets of the bankrupt entities, essentially splitting the banks up into two (bankrupt old company and a new company in major ownership by the government and creditors). That way the old banks will go through bankruptcy proceedings (with creditors loosing the most) and the new banks (that received the bailouts) will be partly or majorly owned by the government, which can at a later point sell it's ownership to recoup some of the bailouts.

Re: undefined

#36
post #3

Beware: This article is filled with factual errors. I was making a list as I went along, and when I afterwards read the comments section I realized I had overlooked many more. That does not by itself affect the validity of the author's overarching thesis, but if someone can't be bothered to get their basic facts straight (e.g. Iceland's EU membership status), it casts serious doubt on their ability to perform the muc…

Who cares if Iceland is a member or almost a member. That's not the point of the article. Can we discuss the main point please, that is a country's population refusing to bail out the criminals of the financial sector.

You go right ahead, but I'm not going to discuss the article's main point until I've had time to read up on the relevant background from other sources. Facts are not ornamental adjoints to an analysis but the very stuff out of which it is made. Besides, there were other inaccuracies. The article claimed that the British and Dutch governments threatened to freeze assets of Icelanders when it seems the only target was assets directly owned by Landsbanki. That's still extraordinary, especially seeing it was prosecuted under the guise of anti-terror, but it is very different in fact and substance from what was claimed.

Re: undefined

#37
post #6
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To clarify the EU point; Iceland is an EU Candidate country along with Croatia, Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia, Montenegro and Turkey."

Is that the author's own clarification? That lessens my confidence in him. Yes, it is a EU candidate country, but its formal ties to the EU (EEA, Schengen, etc) have been much closer and longer-lasting than those of any other candidate country. Listing Iceland in that group gives the wrong impression.

Indeed, my understanding is that the only reason that Iceland wasn't a member of the EU before was that they didn't want to be until recently.

For example, compare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Iceland_to_the_Eur...

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Euro...

Personally, I would love to see Turkey in the EU but they have got a lot more work to do than somewhere like Iceland.

Re: undefined

#38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who cares if Iceland is a member or almost a member. That's not the point of the article. Can we discuss the main point please, that is a country's population refusing to bail out the criminals of the financial sector.

I find that if an article has a glaring factual error in its first paragraph it does rather undermine its overall credibility.

Yes, in a way. But I don't think in this case it matters that much. It's like saying: hey, look at that politician, he smoked weed in college, now this is supposed to undermine his overall credibility. Who cares.

Re: undefined

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that if an article has a glaring factual error in its first paragraph it does rather undermine its overall credibility.

Yes, in a way. But I don't think in this case it matters that much. It's like saying: hey, look at that politician, he smoked weed in college, now this is supposed to undermine his overall credibility. Who cares.

I don't think it is.

Your politician's college was a long time ago, he as a man would have had time to change. The article's mistakes are right now; there's little reason to believe the sloppy fact checking improves right between the first paragraph and the second.

Re: undefined

#40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find that if an article has a glaring factual error in its first paragraph it does rather undermine its overall credibility.

Yes, in a way. But I don't think in this case it matters that much. It's like saying: hey, look at that politician, he smoked weed in college, now this is supposed to undermine his overall credibility. Who cares.

No it isn't.

The lack of fact-based critical thinking is precisely what causes things like the 2008 financial crisis. If an argument is riddled with factual errors I cannot give any faith in its conclusion even if I am generally supportive of them.

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