Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

Post by coldtea » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

1337shadow wrote: post #188

rizkeyz wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Static binaries are a different story. Go has dependencies as any other modern language and they had a bad story in the past and have a better story today. Sketch for python: Create a ~/.cache/python/packages directory. Manage all dependencies there. Make the python interpreter "package aware" so that required dependencies are read off a file from the current project (e.g. "py.mod") and adjust "system path" according…

> Manage all dependencies there Are you saying "put the different version of every dependency you need in there if you have to"? Because I don't think package managers are ready for that, they usually like to have one version installed per package.

Post by thesuperbigfrog » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:38 PM UTC

jacquesm wrote: post #142

toyg wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Perl is a godsend... take a code from 20 years ago, run it on a modern system, and everything works. That's more or less like "take a VB6 binary from 20 years ago, run it on some modern Windows, and everything works" - that's just because the ecosystem is effectively dead, so supporting it on new releases just means carrying over some stuff that worked 20 years ago.

So, Perl is the new Latin?

  use Lingua::Romana::Perligata;
 
  adnota Illud Cribrum Eratothenis
 
  maximum tum val inquementum tum biguttam tum stadium egresso scribe.
  da meo maximo vestibulo perlegementum.
 
  maximum comementum tum novumversum egresso scribe.
  meis listis conscribementa II tum maximum da.
  dum damentum nexto listis decapitamentum fac
      sic
          lista sic hoc tum nextum recidementum cis vannementa listis da.
          dictum sic deinde cis tum biguttam tum stadium tum cum nextum
          comementum tum novumversum scribe egresso.
      cis

Post by debiandev » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:39 PM UTC

smallerfish wrote: post #66

Yes, python packaging is a mess. And agreed, there are two separate use cases: development and using the software. But, are distros creating too much work for themselves by trying to package every itty-bitty python library (and for that matter, every npm library)? Are distros doing anything more than scanning CVE databases with the library versions, or are they _actually_ auditing the versions they choose? (Not that…

Post by blacklion » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:41 PM UTC

ivirshup wrote: post #42

Sesse__ wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Users generally don't want Python packages; they want software. They don't care what it's written in, and shouldn't have to install it differently depending on what you chose. “Just learn $language_package_manager_of_the_day, and hope it doesn't break anything when your system changes” is the equivalent of the 90s “./configure ; make ; make install”, and we should have moved past that for end-users by now. Most users…

But our package is for scientific data analysis. It’s a python library. If you’re distributing an application, shouldn’t you just ship an environment with our package bundled?

Post by goodpoint » Tue, Nov 16, 2021, 1:45 PM UTC

rizkeyz wrote: post #88

captainmuon wrote: post #74

Distros, please stop screwing over Python packaging. It is incredible that Debian/Ubuntu pick Python apart and put modules into different packages. They even create a fake venv command that tells you to please install python-venv. What they should just do is offer a bunch of packages like python3.7, python3.8 that install the official python package wholesale into /usr/python or someplace and then symlink one of them…

This is the real legacy problem: Python comes from a world, where only one version of one packaged seemed the right way to do. I do not have a good idea, but other ecosystems evolved much more sane in the realm of packaging. While not ideal, Go has done a fairly good job - and the "module" operations are instant - which they should be.