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Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

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Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#71

Post by 1337shadow »

withinboredom wrote: post #13
noodlesUK wrote: post #2

I am not one to install python packages using my distro's package manager, but I totally agree with the sentiment that we need a more standard build/dependency management system in python. I like poetry, and I think most people are heading that way, but it doesn't seem to play super nice with pyenv (which is a critical tool) a lot of the time, and I think that a first party endorsement of the "one true build system"…

I’m not a Python dev. I do need to occasionally run things written in Python. I made the mistake of trying to get pip + Conda + pyenv (or whatever) to install a fairly simple tool. I have no idea how the dev got their setup working, but it was totally and utterly unreproducable, even after they sat down on my computer for several hours. In that amount of time, I could have probably rewritten it in PHP (that’s actuall…

> I have no idea how the dev got their setup working

Tip: in such situations I start looking at the CI scripts in their repositories. Not ideal but gets me through!

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#72

Post by smallerfish »

komuher wrote: post #62
microtonal wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, other languages ship package managers [1] that are widely loved within their ecosystems and cover everything from microcontrollers to server applications. I think what it makes it more difficult in the case of Python is that it has decades of legacy to deal with. No consistent semantic versioning, packages that expect that they can modify their package path in-place (this is a nightmare for immutable systems…

Kinda diffrent Rust its like 3 years old when it start getting popular. Python is 13+ years old when it starts getting very popular. You cannot compare legacy to modern solution -.-

Maven was launched 9 years after Java got popular. Everybody was using Ant, everybody decided Ant sucked and moved to the new solution. While Gradle is the new kid on the block, it keeps the infrastructure of dependency management and is thus compatible with Maven to that extent. It can be done.

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#73

Post by nerdponx »

WhyNotHugo wrote: post #61
nerdponx wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Create virtualenv with the Python version you want (including pypy!) and do your pip thing there You might benefit from using Pipx in this case: https://pypa.github.io/pipx/ Pipx is good for the case of "I want to run a standalone Python application that is available through Pip, but not my system's package repo." This is a more common case than you might think. It's a sensible alternative to `pip install --user`,…

Yup, this kinda works. It doesn't address the greater issue tho: that it's getting harder and harder for distributions to package things right, and provider packages for their users (evidenced by the fact that you need a second package manager just for python stuff).

How is Pip any different than Cpanm, NPM, Gem, Luarocks, Nimble, Go's thing, Cargo, whatever JVM people use, whatever Haskell people use, etc. in that regard?

Distros have a hard job, but at the same time programming language tooling devs have more "customers" than just distro maintainers.

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#74

Post by captainmuon »

Distros, please stop screwing over Python packaging. It is incredible that Debian/Ubuntu pick Python apart and put modules into different packages. They even create a fake venv command that tells you to please install python-venv.

What they should just do is offer a bunch of packages like python3.7, python3.8 that install the official python package wholesale into /usr/python or someplace and then symlink one of them to `python`.

If I would get to redesign package management (both for Linux distros and for languages), I would have one package manager that installs everything into a global package cache, and then pick the correct version of libraries at run time (for Python: at import time). Get rid of the requirement that there is only one stable (minor) version of a package in the distribution at one time. This has become unworkable. Instead, make it easy to get bleeding edge versions into the repositories. They can be installed side by side and only picked up by the things that actually use them.

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#75

Post by WhyNotHugo »

cdent wrote: post #46

I'm always confused by these sorts of posts because they happen often so there is clearly a problem but for some reason I've never had much of an issue. I've been using and developing with Python for about 15 years. In that time I've worked on Python projects large (OpenStack) and small (gabbi) and taken over maintenance for some old standbys (wsgi-intercept, paste to name two). Dealt with the 2->3 transition. Releas…

So there's a few types of projects you can write in Python:

1. Server applications that run in a dedicated environment.

2. Tools you write and run just on your machine (or some virtualenv, whatever).

3. Redistributable cli or desktop applications which end users will install and use.

For the first two types, you should never have any issues with Python and its dependency situation. You pin everything, and that's it.

For the third kind tho, it's complete pain. Different distros ship different Python versions, so you need to support all of them. You also have to consider that dependencies can't be an EXACT version, you have to support a range of them, and a variety of combinations.

And then, one dependency has a version that works in Python3.6, and another for 3.9. But they had an API change, so which one do you use? It'll break for half your users either way. Of maybe just put some `if version py3 transition?

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#76

Post by 1337shadow »

dolmen wrote: post #55
tuldia wrote: post #18

Am I the only one that is not having issues with python and distributions in general? I get all my dependencies from Debian and they all work, when I need something that is not yet packaged, I use pip. What are people doing to get all this issues? I don't understand...

Looks like the "Works on my machine" syndrome. What about working on a project with a team? What about deploying the code on another machine?

Then I go with something like docker-compose

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#77

Post by rlpb »

dgan wrote: post #44
elurg wrote: post #33

Python libraries shipped by distributions are so old that this mechanism is mostly useless for python development. This also applies to many others programming languages which have their own packaging systems. While python packaging is indeed messy the needs of traditional linux distributions are by far the least important. Python packaging needs to better serve the needs of python developers, not those of sysadmins.…

Exactly agreed on that. I don't understand what value distribution is providing by repackaging python libs, they re always way too old to be usable, and they re global while I work on many projects, with their own incompatible requirements. Maybe I am dumb, but I exclusively use virtualenv and pip..

> I don't understand what value distribution is providing by repackaging python libs...

I want to easily and safely use some app my distribution ships. I want to receive security updates automatically for all such apps. I don't care what language it's written in or what its dependencies are.

These app packages provided by the distribution have dependencies that are also packaged by the distribution so that dependency resolution works.

Since the point of a distribution is that it can run apps, the value is that a distribution works at all.

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#78

Post by robertlagrant »

A suggestion:

1) If your distro requires Python, don't put it on the path. Refer to it another way if you need it, e.g. have a distroname-system-python package you upgrade at your own cadence.

2) That's it. Then developers can install Python how they like, and it's (probably) all fine.

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#79

Post by WhyNotHugo »

komuher wrote: post #62
microtonal wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, other languages ship package managers [1] that are widely loved within their ecosystems and cover everything from microcontrollers to server applications. I think what it makes it more difficult in the case of Python is that it has decades of legacy to deal with. No consistent semantic versioning, packages that expect that they can modify their package path in-place (this is a nightmare for immutable systems…

Kinda diffrent Rust its like 3 years old when it start getting popular. Python is 13+ years old when it starts getting very popular. You cannot compare legacy to modern solution -.-

Which is why I'm starting to feel like Python is the new Java.

Re: Python: Please stop screwing over Linux distros

#80

Post by keymone »

smallerfish wrote: post #66

Yes, python packaging is a mess. And agreed, there are two separate use cases: development and using the software. But, are distros creating too much work for themselves by trying to package every itty-bitty python library (and for that matter, every npm library)? Are distros doing anything more than scanning CVE databases with the library versions, or are they _actually_ auditing the versions they choose? (Not that…

there's https://github.com/spotify/dh-virtualenv
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