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Divorce does funny things

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Re: Divorce does funny things

#101

Post by watwut »

lelanthran wrote: post #41
shijie wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m going through this right now. I’ve done everything I could to try and save the marriage. My spouse is on the warpath. We have a 2 year-old daughter. I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if it meant my daughter could go to the park with her mommy and daddy together. I cannot say the smallest part of how I feel. Unyielding personal torment and failure. Breaking u…

I've been through it, there's nothing you can do and if the mother is really out for blood she will use your child against you. Women get rights, men get obligations.

If men file for custody they get 50/50. Men who ask for full custody also statistically win more often.

You are doing disservice to both kids and men when you tell them they cant have it.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#102

Post by jessriedel »

me_im_counting wrote: post #73
jessriedel wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fwiw, the large majority (~70%) of divorces are initiated by women in the US. Most divorces are not caused by cancer, and the advantage men have in re-marrying later are known and appreciated. So I think we can take the fact that most divorces are initiated by women as prima facie evidence that women recover better from divorces.

It’s interesting how my comment seems to be taken as an assertion in the opposite direction: that women have it categorically worse in divorce. I believe that reality is much, much more nuanced than either “direction”. That being said, who files is not a perfect signal. I know a few women who filed when it was in reality the husband who ended the marriage.

No one is making categorical claims, nor is any signal perfect. But you questioned whether men are worse hit by divorce, and I offered some evidence that they are.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#103

Post by watwut »

me_im_counting wrote: post #27
mrsmee89 wrote: post #9

As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. When you get divorced, especially when kids are involved, there's an expectation in our society (court system, social pressure, etc) to continue life as if that energy still exists, it simply doesn't. It's maddening. Breaking up a family is lose-lose. There are n…

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regard…

All can be true. Reading statistics, on average, men are financially better after divorce women worst.

Men feel more lonely after divorce and women feel happier after divorce.

Men are more likely to find new partner sooner after divorce, women are more likely to stay single for long time.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#104

Post by watwut »

jessriedel wrote: post #68
me_im_counting wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regard…

Fwiw, the large majority (~70%) of divorces are initiated by women in the US. Most divorces are not caused by cancer, and the advantage men have in re-marrying later are known and appreciated. So I think we can take the fact that most divorces are initiated by women as prima facie evidence that women recover better from divorces.

Women are happier after divorce. Men are more lonely. Men find new partner sooner, women tend to stay single. Men do better financially after divorce and women worst - despite HN claims of divorce destroying men financially. (I think the last point has to do with who has to pick children from school and be with them day to day).

It seems that marriage as is is not working for women while works for men. Women then tend to end it.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#105

Post by ximeng »

jessriedel wrote: post #99
ximeng wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could equally be seen as evidence that staying in a bad marriage is worse for women than for men, so women will risk more to escape that scenario. (Presumably people file because they expect a better life outcome for themselves from divorce than from not divorcing. This could be because they expect a better outcome due to divorce, as you say; or that they expect a worse outcome if they don't divorce, which is my a…

To expect a better outcome with divorce is to expect a worse outcome without divorce.

Suppose a guy and a girl married are both 5/10 in happiness, and that if they divorce they will be 2/10 in happiness for five years, then will recover.

Scenario 1

The woman and the man expect their happiness in marriage to stay around 5/10.

After five years of divorce they have recovered a bit, but the woman recovers more and is now 6/10 but the man is 4/10.

Scenario 2

An alternative is that even though they are both 5/10 in happiness to start with, the woman's expected future happiness in the marriage after five years is only 3/10 while the man's is still 5/10.

Suppose they divorce and both recover the same to 4/10 after five years.

Analysis

In both scenarios after five years the woman will be happier if she divorces, and it may make sense for her to file for divorce depending on her risk tolerance.

Woman filing for divorce more could be evidence for scenario 1, which is my interpretation of your post. It could also be evidence for scenario 2, which is incompatible with your interpretation. It is not so simple to say that more filing is evidence for a better recovery for women.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#106

Post by lelanthran »

watwut wrote: post #101
lelanthran wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been through it, there's nothing you can do and if the mother is really out for blood she will use your child against you. Women get rights, men get obligations.

If men file for custody they get 50/50. Men who ask for full custody also statistically win more often. You are doing disservice to both kids and men when you tell them they cant have it.

> If men file for custody they get 50/50. Men who ask for full custody also statistically win more often.

That's a nice statistic. Where did you get it?

> You are doing disservice to both kids and men when you tell them they cant have it.

Well I apologise for that, every lawyer I spoke to during my divorce (maybe ... 10?) said not to bother, the odds of a court deciding in favour of the mother were 3/5.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#107

Post by varjag »

bananamerica wrote: post #62
cm2012 wrote: post #58

On infidelity - to some extent people's personal business is not my business. But if I hear that someone was unfaithful to their spouse, my business trust in them goes waaay down. If they're willing to break trust with the person closest to them in their life, what chance do I have as a mere business partner of not being screwed over at some point?

People cheat for many reasons. Some of these reasons are only applicable to personal relationships. So yeah, a cheater can be a good business partner.

The probability of that however is a lot lower than otherwise.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#108

Post by bryanrasmussen »

mpol wrote: post #89
romeros wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only that black and white to you because of your naivety and a lack of understanding of how the world really works. The solution for this as for many other things is to switch off the computer and actually go out and experience the world and become more worldly. Otherwise, you will end up building a mental model of reality that quite doesn't exist.

So tell us, how does the real world work? I can understand it if someone ends up in a relationship that has no life in it anymore, but they are loyal to the children. Still, that still raises questions about trustworthiness.

How does remaining in a relationship for your children raise questions about trustworthiness?

Re: Divorce does funny things

#109

Post by bryanrasmussen »

varjag wrote: post #107
bananamerica wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People cheat for many reasons. Some of these reasons are only applicable to personal relationships. So yeah, a cheater can be a good business partner.

The probability of that however is a lot lower than otherwise.

well, since this is HN please show the studies and stats.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#110

Post by AussieWog93 »

jessriedel wrote: post #68
me_im_counting wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regard…

Fwiw, the large majority (~70%) of divorces are initiated by women in the US. Most divorces are not caused by cancer, and the advantage men have in re-marrying later are known and appreciated. So I think we can take the fact that most divorces are initiated by women as prima facie evidence that women recover better from divorces.

>So I think we can take the fact that most divorces are initiated by women as prima facie evidence that women recover better from divorces.

That's a pretty big assumption, especially considering how irrational many people are when it comes to divorce.

Personally, I've always assumed the discrepancy was caused by women's higher standards and belief that they can get a better man that "treats them right". I wouldn't be at all surprised if that was completely wrong, though.

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