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Divorce does funny things

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Re: Divorce does funny things

#31

Post by bitexploder »

shijie wrote: post #14
mrsmee89 wrote: post #9

As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. When you get divorced, especially when kids are involved, there's an expectation in our society (court system, social pressure, etc) to continue life as if that energy still exists, it simply doesn't. It's maddening. Breaking up a family is lose-lose. There are n…

I’m going through this right now. I’ve done everything I could to try and save the marriage. My spouse is on the warpath. We have a 2 year-old daughter. I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if it meant my daughter could go to the park with her mommy and daddy together. I cannot say the smallest part of how I feel. Unyielding personal torment and failure. Breaking u…

I have stood by a couple of friends over the years that went through really tough divorces. When you have children and the divorce is mostly forced on you it is very tough. It does funny things, as the article says. I told my friend once, with more insight than I realized at the time, something like this: “this will break you or make you something of a philosopher.” To that end I like the Stoics. A lot is out of our control. Figure out what is in your control and do your best with them (Dichotomy of control). It’s a good starting point. Sorry your family must experience this.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#32

Post by mrsmee89 »

shijie wrote: post #14
mrsmee89 wrote: post #9

As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. When you get divorced, especially when kids are involved, there's an expectation in our society (court system, social pressure, etc) to continue life as if that energy still exists, it simply doesn't. It's maddening. Breaking up a family is lose-lose. There are n…

I’m going through this right now. I’ve done everything I could to try and save the marriage. My spouse is on the warpath. We have a 2 year-old daughter. I would be willing to work on myself and expect nothing in return for the rest of my life if it meant my daughter could go to the park with her mommy and daddy together. I cannot say the smallest part of how I feel. Unyielding personal torment and failure. Breaking u…

I'm so sorry you're going through this. I know the feeling well. Keeping my family together was my numero uno. It drove me mad. I put myself in incredibly vulnerable positions. The thought of my kids growing up without knowing the love that brought them into this world seemed unbearable.

Looking back, while I was trying to keep my family together. She was trying to get the most out of our separation.

Once I accepted that we weren't going to be a conventional family, I was able to see things with clarity.

Accepting it is the hard part.

If you're married to someone that has experienced being in an unconventional family then this will feel a lot more normal to them, which absolutely sucks. I really feel for you man.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#33

Post by s5300 »

pcbro141 wrote: post #29
s5300 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. COVID unfortunately brought domestic violence rates up, but I wouldn't lump that in with the generality of "relationship market", it's a more serious & specific issue. edit: Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family" Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hingi…

> Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family" > Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hinging on that. Genuine question, why does it sound like you find me advocating for a 2 parent household almost offensive? Is it because you don't believe any of the data about kids raised in 2 parent households is valid? From my perspective, I genuinely don't understand you…

I've made zero reference or statement to "2 parent household"

Only the term nuclear family.

In any case, "nuclear family" dates to around one century at most, in essentially a singular country.

I'd much rather look to the notion of "it takes a village" and extended family concepts that have existed for millennia and overwhelmingly brought us to where we are now.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#34

Post by mrsmee89 »

me_im_counting wrote: post #27
mrsmee89 wrote: post #9

As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. When you get divorced, especially when kids are involved, there's an expectation in our society (court system, social pressure, etc) to continue life as if that energy still exists, it simply doesn't. It's maddening. Breaking up a family is lose-lose. There are n…

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regard…

> IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regardless of gender.

This is a more thoughtful way of putting it. Thank you. I do think that men tend to get the raw end of the deal when it comes to custody though.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#35

Post by s5300 »

jimmaswell wrote: post #30
s5300 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. COVID unfortunately brought domestic violence rates up, but I wouldn't lump that in with the generality of "relationship market", it's a more serious & specific issue. edit: Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family" Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hingi…

> Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. What makes you say this? Last I heard the trend of it getting harder and harder for men has been continuing. When one side has to go crazy going to the gym and making themselves interesting and whatever to stand out while the other side just has to put one blurry picture with no text on any dating site to get inunda…

I don't understand the nature of your argument other than it sounds like you may have some deep seated insecurities or shortcomings, true or imaginary.

If you'd really like to talk about "what's been heard" though, the last I heard the trend was going in the opposite direction of not wanting men who go crazy to the gym, because they tend to be egoistical narcissists.

Note: I go crazy to the gym, but solely because I have a rare connective tissue disorder and my body would otherwise fall apart. Well, it still does - just slightly less with the gym religion.

Double note: I can anecdotally attest to a decent amount of fellow male gym patrons being egoistical narcissists. I have also met a fair amount of females who fit the same description though. But, also plenty of people who just want to stay fit for various normal reasons.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#36

Post by MCllorf »

jimmaswell wrote: post #30
s5300 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. COVID unfortunately brought domestic violence rates up, but I wouldn't lump that in with the generality of "relationship market", it's a more serious & specific issue. edit: Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family" Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hingi…

> Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. What makes you say this? Last I heard the trend of it getting harder and harder for men has been continuing. When one side has to go crazy going to the gym and making themselves interesting and whatever to stand out while the other side just has to put one blurry picture with no text on any dating site to get inunda…

My guess would be that online dating is extremely biased in favor of women because men tend to over-value looks while women tend to value things that are harder to communicate at a glance. Which would be why men generally feel ignored and women generally feel like they have tons of really shitty options.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#37

Post by pcbro141 »

s5300 wrote: post #33
pcbro141 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family" > Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hinging on that. Genuine question, why does it sound like you find me advocating for a 2 parent household almost offensive? Is it because you don't believe any of the data about kids raised in 2 parent households is valid? From my perspective, I genuinely don't understand you…

I've made zero reference or statement to "2 parent household" Only the term nuclear family. In any case, "nuclear family" dates to around one century at most, in essentially a singular country. I'd much rather look to the notion of "it takes a village" and extended family concepts that have existed for millennia and overwhelmingly brought us to where we are now.

Fair enough, thanks for expanding and that makes sense. I agree ideally we would have more people beyond just the 2 parents around to lean on to help raise kids. Preferably the 2 parents (where possible, not advocating you stick with an abusive partner) plus extended family nearby at the very least. I like the multigenerational lifestyle too.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#38

Post by [deleted] »

me_im_counting wrote: post #27
mrsmee89 wrote: post #9

As a divorced man, I can attest to this wholeheartedly. There's an energy a man gets when you're building a family that helps motivate through the struggle. When you get divorced, especially when kids are involved, there's an expectation in our society (court system, social pressure, etc) to continue life as if that energy still exists, it simply doesn't. It's maddening. Breaking up a family is lose-lose. There are n…

Are they? At least among wealthy men, it seems much more common for them to remarry and make a brand new second family while the ex wife is left doing most things for the first set of kids. Plus, it’s significantly more common for men to leave their wives when their wives get diagnosed with cancer than vice versa. IMO, divorce sucks worst for whoever is the most conscientious person and invested in the family, regard…

[deleted]

Re: Divorce does funny things

#39

Post by MeinBlutIstBlau »

pcbro141 wrote: post #11

Decline of marriage, high divorce rate, increasing single parent rate, inflation/wage stagnation, young men increasingly 'opting out' and sexless, doesn't sound good for the future. The relationship market in the West seems horribly broken, not good at all if you want a thriving happy society.

Not to mention men get no benefit out of marriage anymore. I mean there was some book I remember reading on reddit from the 1920s or 40s where women were not supposed to reject their husbands advances. Now you could be tried for sexual assault as a couple ffs. On top of this, divorce universally screws over men.

When you create incentive programs such as divorce, a population doesnt take long to adapt to the institutions horror stories. No marriage means no alimony on breakup. Also no marriage means women wont be as likely to leave if they do not work because of it especially if they have a small support network.

Women have also become more independent. Much like Japan, many western women dont wanna be baby makers. The government kinda forgot though that...well...its kinda important for society. Single mothers increasing helps nobody and dudes are less likely to pay child support when not from marriage.

Overall its been a massive cultural change that will affect future generations significantly. How do you get people to care for a future they arent allowed to create? If anything, apathy to the future generations has been growing since many people dont have children to care for.

Re: Divorce does funny things

#40

Post by pcbro141 »

jimmaswell wrote: post #30
s5300 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. COVID unfortunately brought domestic violence rates up, but I wouldn't lump that in with the generality of "relationship market", it's a more serious & specific issue. edit: Ahh, by the time I finish posting you've come and brought up the "nuclear family" Hard to imagine anything good will come from a discussion hingi…

> Relationship market seems like it's the best it's ever been, from a standpoint of equality, that is. What makes you say this? Last I heard the trend of it getting harder and harder for men has been continuing. When one side has to go crazy going to the gym and making themselves interesting and whatever to stand out while the other side just has to put one blurry picture with no text on any dating site to get inunda…

I think the primary issue with the hetero 'relationship market' these days, is that it's not really a 'relationship' market if you mean stable relationships. People aren't really looking for stable long term relationships as much. Women are much more open to the idea of having a baby outside of marriage and also intentionally being a single mother than they were in the past.

Because women don't really have to settle for 1 man anymore (less stigma nowadays about being single into your 30s/single mother), it becomes more of a hookup market, and naturally women will always have more leverage when it comes to the hookup market due to men's natural higher levels of horniness/willingness to hookup with a wider variety of women than vice versa. If it was a relationship market where everyone has to eventually choose 1 person to settle with like in the past, women wouldn't have as much leverage. You can only have things like '80/20' rule if the market isn't about monogamy (it's not actually 80/20 in reality, but the general dynamic of a minority of men having most of the success with women). Everyone would end up with the same level of success, because everyone would end up with 1 partner if the market was about monogamous stable long term relationships.

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