Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

coindesk.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 237 posts

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#181

Post by koolba »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #165
vkou wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good riddance. I don't think KYC/AML are a force for good If KYC/AML is not possible in the bitcoin world, you're not going to be getting a world with bitcoin that doesn't have KYC/AML. You're going to get a world with no bitcoin.

Finance without KYC/AML is like air travel without TSA. Everyone remembers those times fondly, but have lost the imagination to believe they are possible again.

> Finance without KYC/AML is like air travel without TSA.

The real analogy here is that the ultra rich needn’t deal with the TSA because they fly private.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#182

Post by danlugo92 »

cgb223 wrote: post #142
TekMol wrote: post #6

A crazy thing with Taproot is: A company could create a virtual bank to handle all transfers with its suppliers by doing a single onchain transaction. From the outside, it would look like a normal "Someone sent some coins from address A to address B" transaction. But internally, a key needed to spend the funds is only valid if the company and all of its suppliers sign it. This means every time there is a transaction…

So if I’m a single supplier and I want to act as a hostile actor in order to negotiate better terms or something, does my refusing to sign mean that _all_ supplier transactions are reversed or at least slowed on chain? Is there an actual attack surface here? Also, if I’m adding a new supplier in this example, do I have to spin up an entirely new “virtual bank” to do so? Or can I just add them to the current one? What…

You will open a virtual bank with one of the big nodes, say Binance, and they will handle the rest.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#183

Post by danlugo92 »

tgb wrote: post #106
HashBasher wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the transaction is fully signed and can be broadcast at any time by either party to settle. It doesn't have to be broadcasted and further transactions can be done on top and they just keep it private between themselves.

I'm missing how you can have a transaction that is not broadcasted but that prevents a double spend. Can't I give two different people signed transactions for the same bitcoins? How could the second recipient know I've already spent the balance on the first? Apologies for the no-doubt naive questions, it just sounds impossible.

Theres a timelock enforced by the blockchain.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#184

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

ulzeraj wrote: post #103
pyrale wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So basically, does that mean KYC/AML are officially dead in BTC's environment? The picture was not bright before, but with this kind of innovations, it seems impossible for this network to build banking systems that respect regulations.

Good riddance. I don't think KYC/AML are a force for good. Its just more box ticking laws that serve to give a false sense of security while poor people are being excluded from the banking system and normal people have their all their data stolen from centralized databases. Real dangerous criminals don't give a damn about KYC/AML laws and operate freely within the banking framework. The European Central Bank chairwom…

> The European Central Bank chairwoman is a felon convicted for massive government payouts.

Why do people feel the need to deliberately mislead by leaving out all the important details? I had no idea what you were talking about, so I looked it up, it's the second item under https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Lagarde#Controvers....

Regardless of your opinions on that particular court case, or the fact that the letter of your statement may be true, do you honestly think "The European Central Bank chairwoman is a felon convicted for massive government payouts" would give the average reader an accurate view of what happen? Because after reading what actually happened, and which IMO comes nowhere near to the deliberate malfeasance you imply, I just conclude that, to put it colloquially, "You're full of shit."

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#185

Post by danlugo92 »

323 wrote: post #36
TekMol wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you know?

Because there are no articles about big companies having money transfer problems with their suppliers. The complains are about the "buy now pay 90 days later" part, not about the actual money transfer.

What about Venezuelan or Iranian companies?

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#186

Post by danlugo92 »

johnday wrote: post #51
TekMol wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

BMW will not accept it's bitcoin being locked for 90 days The way I see the future, BMW will not only lock their Bitcoin for 90 days but much longer. And not only the Bitcoin they owe to one supplier. But a large portion of their Bitcoin. Aka their virtual bank account. They can still use their account however they like. But if one of their suppliers feels that the balance goes dangerously low, the supplier can block…

Surely suppliers want to be paid? Accumulating a huge pile of IOUs is of zero benefit to someone who has actual real-world costs, such as taxes, payroll and capital outlays.

Lightning transactions are final. Anything else is FUD.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#187

Post by danlugo92 »

tgb wrote: post #106
HashBasher wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the transaction is fully signed and can be broadcast at any time by either party to settle. It doesn't have to be broadcasted and further transactions can be done on top and they just keep it private between themselves.

I'm missing how you can have a transaction that is not broadcasted but that prevents a double spend. Can't I give two different people signed transactions for the same bitcoins? How could the second recipient know I've already spent the balance on the first? Apologies for the no-doubt naive questions, it just sounds impossible.

Lightning transactions are all final and irreversible via cryptography mechanisms.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#188

Post by hujni »

Mengkudulangsat wrote: post #165
vkou wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Good riddance. I don't think KYC/AML are a force for good If KYC/AML is not possible in the bitcoin world, you're not going to be getting a world with bitcoin that doesn't have KYC/AML. You're going to get a world with no bitcoin.

Finance without KYC/AML is like air travel without TSA. Everyone remembers those times fondly, but have lost the imagination to believe they are possible again.

Is the thought that things like Monero, ZCash, etc., will be eliminated, or that they don't provide the anonymity that people think? What about the CCs that choose to implement Mimblewimble?

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#189

Post by anonporridge »

Macha wrote: post #179
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We don't consider dollars less valuable if they're paid via American Express, even though it's less accepted than Visa. As long as there's a critical mass of users somewhere, the "who accepts what" problem reduces to a software problem that most people will ignore.

No, but in this analogy, bitcoin is american express, not USD. American Express cards are definitely considered less valuable to potential customers here because they're only accepted in ~70% of stores. It's been a bone of contention at my current employer as our corporate cards are American express but they consequently can't be used semi-frequently

This is not the right way to look at it though.

Bitcoin is not an alternative payment system. People keep getting confused on this point, partly because of how bitcoin was marketed in the early days (there obviously is no marketing team, just passionate people telling their stories about what they thought it was).

Bitcoin is the bedrock of an alternative monetary system. Visas and AmExes will be built on top of it, just like they are built on top of dollars.

And the analogy is not Visa competing with AmEx. It's the dollar competing with the Renminbi or Euro.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#190

Post by tgb »

jallen_dot_dev wrote: post #160
tgb wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm missing how you can have a transaction that is not broadcasted but that prevents a double spend. Can't I give two different people signed transactions for the same bitcoins? How could the second recipient know I've already spent the balance on the first? Apologies for the no-doubt naive questions, it just sounds impossible.

There would first be 1 broadcasted on-chain transaction setting up the channel, with X of my bitcoin and Y of your bitcoin being locked up. This prevents double spend. Then, you and I pass n signed transactions between each other updating our balances Xt & Yt for each t, t+1, ...t+n. At any time, either one of us can broadcast the final transaction with the most up to date balance and unlock the coins.

So it requires one on-chain transaction per pair of parties instead of one per transaction? Clever and I suppose useful but seems a little limited in use, given that the funds are locked the whole time. Good for two parties that frequently have transactions going in both directions?
Post reply on HN