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Is there such a thing as good taste?

paulgraham.com

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Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#261

Post by alakra »

I was talking to an artist a few years ago who seemed to downplay the significance of her art as we discussed the paths of lives we each took, she a traditional artist and I a hacker.

I had to quickly remind her that the importance of her art was substantial because it helped other people see ideas and other unseen things clearly. We need this in our communities and societies more than ever.

I love this idea because those with good taste can show layers of depth through their art much better than those with poor taste.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#262

Post by Afforess »

wpietri wrote: post #227
motohagiography wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I replied to another comment related, but the anti- version of modernism is of course post-modernism, where nothing is real and everything is mainly its symbolic value. The conceit of that argument is that aesthetics are somehow trivial because anyone can appreciate them but very few can produce them - whereas you take anything post-modern and everyone can produce them but almost nobody can appreciate them sincerely.…

I certainly appreciate and enjoy your points here. But given that you are not out eating a gourmet meal while galloping a horse toward your ski chalet, it seems that you and the postmodern crowd both value highly the creation of a shared narrative about what's important and what's going on. A narrative specifically shaped toward political ends. So in the end I don't see you as much different.

>it seems that you and the postmodern crowd both value highly the creation of a shared narrative about what's important and what's going on

This is a fairly widely mocked opinion, it;'s the same caliber of criticism as the "we should improve society" meme. The fact that both sides participate in shared narrative isn't a sign that both are corrupt, it's a sign the narrative is important.

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-should-improve-society-som...

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#263

Post by rhines »

rojoca wrote: post #254

Ira Glass has a practical take on the idea of exposing good taste (e.g. trying to paint like Bellini): https://youtu.be/X2wLP0izeJE where he talks about how your good taste informs you that the work you are doing doesn’t yet match your ambition, and that this can be both motivating and discouraging

The way you've phrased this is rather beautiful, in that it suggests that good art is art which matches the intent of the author.

Some artists seek to recreate the world around them in great fidelity, and if they succeed in producing photorealistic paintings then for them, that is great art. Others seek to stir up controversy or draw attention to some cause, and if their work achieves that then that is great art. Others may simply seek to express themselves, or find peace with their feelings, and if they succeed in this then it is great art.

This is of course a different definition than Paul Graham would use. It does not allow for so much judgement and comparison. But for people interested in producing art, rather than consuming it, I think it's a much more useful perspective.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#264

Post by raydev »

I wonder if this is at all related to the massive wave of hatred for Bored Apes/Lions, etc.

Even putting aside people's issues with the concept of NFTs, people seem to agree the art is somewhere between bad and revolting. Except for the people investing in them.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#265

Post by bambax »

> Because if there is such a thing as good art, it's easy to tell which of two people has better taste. Show them a lot of works by artists they've never seen before

I mostly agree with the theory here, however doing that is impossible or very difficult, because the way you build taste is to educate it, by rubbing your senses against great art.

So it's extremely unlikely you can find a person with good taste that would "never have seen before" a lot of great art in the domain they have taste in.

Although he doesn't discuss this here, I fear the reason why PG imagines this setup is because he believes good taste is in fact innate; you either have good taste or you don't, and there's nothing you can do about it.

That's just not true. As with most things, you start somewhere and then you grow.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#266

Post by cwmoore »

newbamboo wrote: post #255
cwmoore wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder whether you think this essay is "great" mostly because you agree with it? That one must judge art, to enjoy art, appears fundamentally exclusionary, itself to my tastes, and to use PG's word, "crass", but in yours, his, and most people's, more or less innocently so.

“I wonder whether you think this essay is "great" mostly because you agree with it?” An odd question but yes I think it’s great, as I explained in post, mostly because I agree with it. Not sure if you’re asking a real question or making a rhetorical point about thinking people are crass for believing in taste, in beauty. Assuming it is a real question, part of the reason I think it’s a great essay, as I allude to be…

To disabuse you of an apparent misunderstanding, I do not at all find art to be crass. I enjoy it immensely and it enriches every aspect of my life, even elevating the ordinary.

The judgement of merit by a non-artist of an artist's work is the part I found to be crass and rather a shadow of the social benefits of taste than good taste itself.

A friend once asked me for a drawing of mine to hang on his wall. I offered the choice between two, one a portrait with some geometric figures and the other a pair of skulls. The latter he told me was "not to his taste", and the former he hung up in his entryway. Some things belong some places and not others, and an absolute hierarchy of taste is only the temporary a side-effect of an absolute hierarchy of power. Judge not, lest ye be in turn.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#267

Post by DanielBMarkham »

I find with a lot of more interesting topics, I have to come up with my own definition, then measure it against what various people say.

Good art, at least to me, is art that has emotional impact over time. I can view a painting by a master and it will affect me. I can hear one of Beethoven's symphonies and somehow I'm inside his head during that time.

These do not seem to be things you can measure in the moment, or at least I can't. It takes decades to sort out art that people like from art that continues to carry strong emotional impact. So, in my mind at least, there's a lot of room for subjectivity when talking about modern art. As things age, however, much of that subjectivity goes away, and it goes away for the exact reasons pg outlines.

There is such a thing as good taste, but in terms of modern art it's difficult if not impossible to put your finger on it.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#268

Post by asiachick »

jacobolus wrote: post #222
hardwaregeek wrote: post #191

It amazes me when people seem to lack taste. I'm not even saying the ability to rank items in a way that agrees to some general standard. I'm saying the ability to notice that there is even a difference. I'll talk about taste in the literal sense but this extends to everything. I remember being at a Chinese restaurant with some friends where we were eating scallion pancakes. I said, boastfully, that my family makes b…

> friend remarked that he didn't think there was any difference, that indeed all scallion pancakes were exactly alike to him. This is entirely plausible. If you are used to eating some food regularly over the course of decades, you will be able to discriminate between good vs. mediocre versions. If you have only eaten a food a few times, the most relevant comparisons will be with other types of food, and you won’t ne…

Lots of TV shows showing "experts" where they blind taste test them between expensive and cheap wine or expensive vs cheap chocolate and blind folded they can not tell the difference.

That is not to say there is no good vs bad wine/chocolate/name your food. But it has nothing to do with price.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#269

Post by grujicd »

jacobolus wrote: post #222
hardwaregeek wrote: post #191

It amazes me when people seem to lack taste. I'm not even saying the ability to rank items in a way that agrees to some general standard. I'm saying the ability to notice that there is even a difference. I'll talk about taste in the literal sense but this extends to everything. I remember being at a Chinese restaurant with some friends where we were eating scallion pancakes. I said, boastfully, that my family makes b…

> friend remarked that he didn't think there was any difference, that indeed all scallion pancakes were exactly alike to him. This is entirely plausible. If you are used to eating some food regularly over the course of decades, you will be able to discriminate between good vs. mediocre versions. If you have only eaten a food a few times, the most relevant comparisons will be with other types of food, and you won’t ne…

Obligatory XKCD:

https://xkcd.com/915/

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#270

Post by ajuc »

Each work of art is a multidimensional vector, you can objectively decide how long the vector is along its direction (how well executed it is), but you cannot objectively decide which direction is better.

People call "taste" the part that decides which directions you like.

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