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Is there such a thing as good taste?

paulgraham.com

191–200 of 479 posts

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#191
It amazes me when people seem to lack taste. I'm not even saying the ability to rank items in a way that agrees to some general standard. I'm saying the ability to notice that there is even a difference. I'll talk about taste in the literal sense but this extends to everything. I remember being at a Chinese restaurant with some friends where we were eating scallion pancakes. I said, boastfully, that my family makes better scallion pancakes and a friend remarked that he didn't think there was any difference, that indeed all scallion pancakes were exactly alike to him. Or another friend couldn't tell the difference between orange juice from concentrate and not from concentrate.

I wonder how much of this is physiological and how much is mental. I can't help but think you'd need some sort of color blindness for taste to genuinely not notice any difference between scallion pancakes. But perhaps my friend was exaggerating.

My theory is that taste is one quality that separates the academics from the business people. Academia doesn't necessitate a lot of taste. If you have it, great. If you don't have it, no big deal. On the other hand, stuff such as product design, user interfaces, even software engineering, requires taste. You need to understand what makes a good piece of software or a good product. One could argue that Steve Jobs was a product supertaster. He was finely attuned to stuff that the average user (or the average HN reader) would not see. As PG notes, taste is being attuned to the collective unconsciousness, to a collective aesthetic. If you can tap into that, you can attract customers.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#192

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

Yes, it seems to me that Paul's reasoning makes this mix up at this point: > So if you want to discard the concept of good taste, you also have to discard the concept of good art. And that means you have to discard the possibility of people being good at making it. People can be measurably good at realising specific criteria, even if you can't absolutely compare these criteria.

Then there is a semi-order (fuzzy as it may be) in taste, and "good" and "bad" taste exist.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#193

> If there's no such thing as good taste, then there's no such thing as good art. No problem. > So if you want to discard the concept of good taste, you also have to discard the concept of good art. And that means you have to discard the possibility of people being good at making it. This skips a step. It assumes without argument that production skill corresponds to subjective preferences. There are many people who a…

> > If there's no such thing as good taste, then there's no such thing as good art. Because if there is such a thing as good art, it's easy to tell which of two people has better taste. Show them a lot of works by artists they've never seen before and ask them to choose the best, and whoever chooses the better art has better taste. How does one determine "better art"?

Better is just a word that means "more good", so I've already answered this. One simply subjectively prefers some art over other art. What people prefer (i.e. think is better) does not correspond to production skill, as I already argued.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#194

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

Edit: OK fine, I'll shut up.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#195

As others have mentioned, Bourdieu would like a word with him https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distinction_(book) Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste. The artists he mentions are skilled at art and he states that he is not. Distinguishing between skilled and unskilled work may be "good taste" but what is considered good art is more than just skill.

> Graham seems to be conflating skill with taste

I came here to type this sentence almost word for word.

I think this divide is most easily seen in the realm of acting, with no better example than Nicholas Cage: high skill level, low taste, at least judging by the majority of projects he chooses. (The counterargument might be that he realizes he's making a lot of bad movies and just needs the paycheck – he's infamous for blowing his money in foolhardy ways – but I definitely think at least some part of the essence of Nicholas Cage comes from conflict between high skill vs low taste).

I was friends with a guy in college who was a masterful musician (toured professionally as an all-purpose backup musician for some mid-tier bands you have heard of) and I used to argue with him about one particular band whose music I disliked [^1], and he would say, "But do you know how hard it is to play those notes? Look!" and he would stretch his fingers all over the bass fret, and I'd say, yeah, but... finger gymnastics is not the same as good music.

Also back in college, when CDs were a thing and money was scarce, I used to debate with myself about whether it would be worthwhile to accept the faustian bargain of trading my own musical tastes to exactly match the contents of the record store's discount CD bin, which was filled with things like Richard Marx albums [^2], so I could buy ten albums for five dollars.

[^1]: I don't want to start a flame war but it's the 80's-era band with complex bass arrangements which I have noticed is popular with sysadmin folks

[^2]: No disrespect intended to people who dig Richard Marx, or to Richard Marx himself, but it sticks in my mind as the thing that was in the bin I was looking at when I had this thought.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#196
I can usually tell which advertisement will perform best before they go live, at a much higher rate than lay people.

Is that taste? Honest question.

It's being able to tell which piece of art more people will choose to interact with, which is pretty close to PG's definition of taste.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#197
post #8

I don't agree with his argument. I'd argue that it's perfectly possible for something that took huge skill and execution brilliance to create to be ugly / tasteless / vulgar, indeed completely tasteless.

If you want examples, take a look at https://www.reddit.com/r/ATBGE/ (ATBGE stands for Awful Taste but Great Execution). While I think that taste is subjective, it would be difficult to argue that many of these posts were good ideas.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#198
post #151
post #88

I think Christopher Alexander has a better answer to this question. He states that anything that is designed is good when love was put into it. People can taste this love. So it's more like: when love was put into it, it tastes good.

this is a little trite and definitely isn't universal, let alone well defined (as to what 'love' means in this context) so doesn't really help anyone trying to understand more about what makes good taste (or good design, in your instance) - i think there can be plenty examples of good design and good taste that come from hate, or from indifference; all sorts of emotions and rationales...

It does sound trite when distilled into a one-liner, but Alexander put 60+ years of work into it and wrote his 4-volume masterpiece about it. Nothing trite about that.

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#199
> It was obvious that Leonardo and Bellini were much better at it than me. That gap between us was not imaginary. They were so good. And if they could be good, then art could be good, and there was such a thing as good taste after all.

Is taste simply recognition of skill? If that's the case, I think "taste" is commonly used too narrowly.

Is it "tasteful" to appreciate a heart surgeon's life-saving? Or a teacher's ability to help me learn? That sounds odd to me (though we should obviously appreciate it!).

I've always thought of taste as an ability to identify intrinsic value, especially when others might miss it ("it's just a picture, dude"). If it's skill alone, why is taste typically applied to aesthetic pursuits?

Re: Is there such a thing as good taste?

#200
post #91

Go to guy on this is Bourdieu. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu#Theory_of_capi... PG may say that his father pushed him in a different direction. But I suspect - like me - PG grew up with the cultural direction of the BBC and its mission to "inform, educate, and entertain." So if you were a bright curious kid your parents wouldn't necessarily be the ultimate authorities on culture and taste. There were o…

Next thing you want to tell me is that wine doesn't really taste good? (the high quality wine of course)

A hypothetical wine that tastes good would have taste too different from wine that it won't count as wine anymore.
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