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Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

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Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#51

Post by Aunche »

shakna wrote: post #36
galfarragem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

> The difference is the meaning of "poor". The meaning of "poor" in Africa is someone that may eat once a day or not even that. The company mentioned that found cash programs work, GiveDirectly, works not only on a global scale, but within US borders, with similar results.

GiveDirectly's studies in developing countries are quite compelling, but I don't believed they've published any studies about the US yet.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#52

Post by vsskanth »

wtmt wrote: post #13

The speed of doing this is astonishing for sure, though the article also states that many people were excluded because they didn't have (or refused to have) the newer voter ID cards (issued after 2018) and also because they had to physically verify the cards due to fraudsters misusing lists obtained from polling stations. Exclusion is a larger issue that negates claims of equality or non-discrimination. Tangentially,…

I think in India iris scans are used in addition to fingerprint as biometric markers. Doesn't cover all cases but more robust than just relying on a finger or an eye.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#53

Post by shakna »

Aunche wrote: post #51
shakna wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The difference is the meaning of "poor". The meaning of "poor" in Africa is someone that may eat once a day or not even that. The company mentioned that found cash programs work, GiveDirectly, works not only on a global scale, but within US borders, with similar results.

GiveDirectly's studies in developing countries are quite compelling, but I don't believed they've published any studies about the US yet.

Temporarily correct. I am eagerly awaiting the publication of results from "Evaluating one-time cash transfers to U.S. households during the COVID-19 pandemic", which has the trials completed, and analysis underway.

However, they have had previous programs of their own that ran in the US, such as their Hurricane Harvey relief programs. (Which haven't turned into research papers).

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#54

Post by refurb »

typon wrote: post #40
galfarragem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

Americans are so concerned with accidentally helping someone who doesn't deserve it that they'd rather sacrifice the well being of millions who do

Unemployment in CA went $23B in debt because of Covid (spent more in benefits than collected).

$11B is estimated to be fraud.

Your statement is quite trite to be honest.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#55

Post by Robotbeat »

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #50
Robotbeat wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In part because we have used regulations to require you to be rich. In India the cheapest new street legal car is the Tato Nano, around $2500 (maybe small electric cars from China even less). But the cheapest new car in the US is the Chevy Spark at $13-14k. Building codes and zoning regulations mean there’s a minimum price you have to pay for housing in the US that’s around a factor of 10 higher than in much of the w…

> In part because we have used regulations to require you to be rich. ... > Building codes and zoning regulations mean there’s a minimum price you have to pay for housing in the US that’s around a factor of 10 higher than in much of the world (less than $100/month for a single bedroom apartment in a city in India vs around $1000/month in the US in a city… median is currently around $1200/month). That's a pretty incre…

But land is not where people live. Buildings are. Buildings which can be built higher. Building materials are global commodities. So why doesn’t the US just build more stories than India if the land is more expensive but the commodities to build buildings, relative to cost of land, are cheaper? Answer: zoning codes, “local control,” and regulations.

(Also, the land density per person is actually MUCH higher in India than the US, over an order of magnitude higher, which OUGHT to bid up the price of land even more. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_dependen... )

The reality is we make it illegal to be poor, whether intentional or not.

And then put meanstesting in social programs to target them, which has the perverse effect of making it harder for those who are poorest (ie least able to navigate bureaucracy) to get access to them.

And as far as ideology, both the left and the right seem to conspire to make this happen. It’s worse in cities than rural area due to obvious reasons, but within a city itself, both the mainstream left and mainstream right seem to back the regulations that make it illegal to be poor.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#56

Post by spaetzleesser »

roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

"Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back."

You should always looking at what others are doing and draw your own conclusions. I think one thing that may cause or is already causing problems for the US is the refusal to look at what other countries are doing, for example in health care, social programs or drug policy. You don't have to copy what others are doing but having a good understanding is very helpful.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#57

Post by gerbilly »

cycomanic wrote: post #27
shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

The issue is that in the west, and particular in the US, being poor is considered a character flaw. Rudger Bergman goes into a bit of detail on the history of that perception, which he attributes to the opposition against Nixon's UBI (at least in the US). So what we now have in many western nations is a huge bureaucratic body to prevent fraud on social security systems which at the same time significantly increase hu…

> The issue is that in the west, and particular in the US, being poor is considered a character flaw.

This is the Just world hypothesis in action.¹

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#58

Post by complianceowl »

typon wrote: post #40
galfarragem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

Americans are so concerned with accidentally helping someone who doesn't deserve it that they'd rather sacrifice the well being of millions who do

The mistake you make is assuming that your supposed 'noble intentions' justify what you are proposing; they do not. Your noble intentions are absolutely hypocritical and fake. If you really cared about the poor, you would voluntarily donate money from your own pocket; you don't need a law for that. Instead, you want to use the legislator to compel the others to the involuntary distribution of their hard-earned money.

A nation can just as easily 'accidentally help someone' to its own demise. What happens when you incentivize idleness on a national scale? What happens tax rates have to keep going up and up to fund the benefits of the idle? What about all the vast social welfare programs we already have in place here in America? What about the worker shortage that unemployment benefits caused just recently during the pandemic? A worker shortage I saw everywhere, first hand. Whatever country you're from, you're doing a bad job representing it.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#59

Post by refurb »

Robotbeat wrote: post #15
ctdonath wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US "poverty line" is at 80th percentile of world incomes.

In part because we have used regulations to require you to be rich. In India the cheapest new street legal car is the Tato Nano, around $2500 (maybe small electric cars from China even less). But the cheapest new car in the US is the Chevy Spark at $13-14k. Building codes and zoning regulations mean there’s a minimum price you have to pay for housing in the US that’s around a factor of 10 higher than in much of the w…

Some social programs? Don’t be a jerk.

I currently live in a country where covid caused a shutdown and the government said they’d help and completely failed to do so.

We’re talking barely subsistence wages going to zero and the government promising relief but failing forcing people to beg and rely on charity.

The US social program for Covid were fucking generous.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#60

Post by amelius »

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

> That kind of speed of development is absolutely possible

And every time I say on HN that I can do something in a weekend, I get downvoted.

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