Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks • Hacker News Board

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#41

Post by havkd » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:42 PM UTC

GuB-42 wrote: post #39

roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

Poor countries are riddled with fraud, corruption, etc... It is a challenge just doing what we take for granted in the west. For example, if you have a toll road, you can expect most people to bribe the guy at the toll booth instead of paying the fee, and the little that is collected will probably line the pockets of whoever is in charge instead of maintaining the road. Having a government program that actually works…

You’ll get flagged but coming from a poor country you are on point.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#42

Post by shakna » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:43 PM UTC

Bayart wrote: post #20

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

>The key difference seems to be not the fraud prevention systems, but the desire to help those in need The key difference is the complete lack of regulation and data policies. The potential for malevolence in a country the size of Togo is limited, but I'd rather not have the same processes in my own country.

> The potential for malevolence in a country the size of Togo is limited, but I'd rather not have the same processes in my own country.

The potential for building more advanced fraud protection systems also scales with the nation being discussed. Especially when you consider that the world's largest fraud protection experts are already operating within the borders of most of those richer nations.

Why not partner with MasterCard or VISA?

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#43

Post by cturner » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:45 PM UTC

ctdonath wrote: post #8

galfarragem wrote: post #6

Major takeaway: "evidence has accumulated that in many circumstances, cash improves the life of poor people more than equivalent spending on aid programs or goods."

US "poverty line" is at 80th percentile of world incomes.

This would be a powerful point with a reference - can you cite it?

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#44

Post by Spooky23 » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

One of the (if not “the”) triumphs of the Trump administration was getting payments out to millions of people in a couple of weeks.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#45

Post by guerrilla » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

roenxi wrote: post #28

guerrilla wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You comment only makes sense if you assume that they are poor of their own fault rather than due to a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrollable factors; and if you assume that the strategy can't be considered independently.

But the alternative you put is to assume that their failures are due to external forces and their success due to policy choices. China also has a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrolled factors. They got wealthy with breathtaking speed. It is unwise to look past that to Togo.

> But the alternative you put is to assume that their failures are due to external forces and their success due to policy choices.

I'm not assuming it, but I think someone should make that argument given that the country was subject to over 300 years of brutal colonialism which included being the literal capital of the slave trade and later neocolonialism. China's a different story because they eradicated foreign ownership and interference before any of its success and still has pretty heavy capital controls and other mechanisms in place including local ownership requirement laws.

In any case, there are many other factors that could influence any countries development starting from simple geographic luck. To assume that it is a self-made problem (or isn't) without argument is not useful.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#46

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:54 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #40

galfarragem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

Americans are so concerned with accidentally helping someone who doesn't deserve it that they'd rather sacrifice the well being of millions who do

Indeed. And our definition of "deserve" is perverse as well. It tends to mean "people like me".

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#47

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:56 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #40

galfarragem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

Americans are so concerned with accidentally helping someone who doesn't deserve it that they'd rather sacrifice the well being of millions who do

[deleted]

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#48

Post by siruncledrew » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:58 PM UTC

The difference Togo has going for themselves is that they are like a startup country that has to be lean and resourceful because they just don’t have the money or - for lack of a better phrase - bureaucratic structures in place.

The article is calling Togo “poor” but that’s from the perspective of the West. Poverty is the norm, not the exception in such countries, which means that everybody is in the same boat trying to use what they have to make it work.

I think in the US, there’s much more hesitation to dive into new things with a willingness of accepting potential failure ahead of time and pivoting if needed.

Put another way, if Togo tried this and failed, they can just say “well we’re back to where we started, let’s try another way”, whereas if that happened in the US it would be seen as a major fault and carry a lot of political consequences.

Put into a tech perspective, a new tech startup might be willing to live with their business logic running cheaply off clever “hacks” that suffice, but if you approached a big company with that solution there would be like 10 levels of managers all critiquing it and running CBAs to assess the risks firsts.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#49

Post by alexilliamson » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 2:59 PM UTC

typon wrote: post #40

galfarragem wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

Americans are so concerned with accidentally helping someone who doesn't deserve it that they'd rather sacrifice the well being of millions who do

Yes this the tradeoff we need to make more explicit in these discussions. Is it better to err on the side of feeding too many people? Or do we err on the side of extensively validating peoples' hunger status, knowing that for every inch of red tape added means another hungry person left in need.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#50

Post by BoiledCabbage » Mon, Nov 15, 2021, 3:03 PM UTC

Robotbeat wrote: post #15

ctdonath wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US "poverty line" is at 80th percentile of world incomes.

In part because we have used regulations to require you to be rich. In India the cheapest new street legal car is the Tato Nano, around $2500 (maybe small electric cars from China even less). But the cheapest new car in the US is the Chevy Spark at $13-14k. Building codes and zoning regulations mean there’s a minimum price you have to pay for housing in the US that’s around a factor of 10 higher than in much of the w…

> In part because we have used regulations to require you to be rich.

...

> Building codes and zoning regulations mean there’s a minimum price you have to pay for housing in the US that’s around a factor of 10 higher than in much of the world (less than $100/month for a single bedroom apartment in a city in India vs around $1000/month in the US in a city… median is currently around $1200/month).

That's a pretty incredible take. Somehow so many people live in an ideological bubble, that no matter how varied the situation their explanation of the cause of the problem is exactly the same.

In the US, where the minimum wage is 10x that of India, the real value is land likely more than 10x that of India the explanation for why housing is more expensive is because of building codes. The claim is that 90% of the cost of housing is due is building codes.

I really wish people on got out of their ideological bubble more frequently. Some mantras get repeated so much people start believing they are true no matter how contradictory the evidence. It's not good for long term outcomes.