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Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

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Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#31

Post by roenxi »

whoomp12342 wrote: post #26
roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

innovation comes from thought diversity. Just a different culture and set of circumstances can certainly bear fruits of positive systematic change. Most important is to vet the concept, not the country.

How do we know that the concept is isolated and able to be vetted separately? Needing stimulus is usually a sign of other policy failures in my book.

People like to act as though big economic crashes are random and unpredictable like a weather event. They aren't, they are generally a result of policy too.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#32

Post by beaconstudios »

roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

given that this rollout happened over the pandemic, it's not likely to be the cause of Togo's poverty.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#33

Post by galfarragem »

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival.

That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idle" one instead of teaching him to fish.

The main difference is the meaning of "poor". The meaning of "poor" in Africa is someone that may eat once a day or not even that. In the west, the poverty line is way above that.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#34

Post by beaconstudios »

roenxi wrote: post #28
guerrilla wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You comment only makes sense if you assume that they are poor of their own fault rather than due to a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrollable factors; and if you assume that the strategy can't be considered independently.

But the alternative you put is to assume that their failures are due to external forces and their success due to policy choices. China also has a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrolled factors. They got wealthy with breathtaking speed. It is unwise to look past that to Togo.

I don't think anyone is claiming that we should only look at Togo and not other nations that have implemented successful policy. On the contrary, governors should look around the globe to find examples of success stories in order to build a corpus from which to learn about the realities of policymaking.

Shenzhen seems to be an example of making a small number of extremely wealthy individuals and a large number of sweatshop-tier factory labourers; I wouldn't class that as an example to follow unless you only care about creating millionaires.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#35

Post by hkt »

Bayart wrote: post #20
shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

>The key difference seems to be not the fraud prevention systems, but the desire to help those in need The key difference is the complete lack of regulation and data policies. The potential for malevolence in a country the size of Togo is limited, but I'd rather not have the same processes in my own country.

If size of country is a determinant of public sector efficiency, there's an easy answer to many of the supposed problems of the public sector - secession.

Alternatively we could accept the role of outsourcing and the effects of the broken social fabric and the system-wide problems that remain unresolved in the anglosphere countries.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#36

Post by shakna »

galfarragem wrote: post #33
shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

> The difference is the meaning of "poor". The meaning of "poor" in Africa is someone that may eat once a day or not even that.

The company mentioned that found cash programs work, GiveDirectly, works not only on a global scale, but within US borders, with similar results.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#37

Post by licebmi__at__ »

roenxi wrote: post #31
whoomp12342 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

innovation comes from thought diversity. Just a different culture and set of circumstances can certainly bear fruits of positive systematic change. Most important is to vet the concept, not the country.

How do we know that the concept is isolated and able to be vetted separately? Needing stimulus is usually a sign of other policy failures in my book. People like to act as though big economic crashes are random and unpredictable like a weather event. They aren't, they are generally a result of policy too.

By analyzing and researching the idea and context, not by dismissing them because “they are poor”.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#38

Post by radu_floricica »

hkt wrote: post #35
Bayart wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The key difference seems to be not the fraud prevention systems, but the desire to help those in need The key difference is the complete lack of regulation and data policies. The potential for malevolence in a country the size of Togo is limited, but I'd rather not have the same processes in my own country.

If size of country is a determinant of public sector efficiency, there's an easy answer to many of the supposed problems of the public sector - secession. Alternatively we could accept the role of outsourcing and the effects of the broken social fabric and the system-wide problems that remain unresolved in the anglosphere countries.

Or just decentralization.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#39

Post by GuB-42 »

roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

Poor countries are riddled with fraud, corruption, etc... It is a challenge just doing what we take for granted in the west.

For example, if you have a toll road, you can expect most people to bribe the guy at the toll booth instead of paying the fee, and the little that is collected will probably line the pockets of whoever is in charge instead of maintaining the road.

Having a government program that actually works is extremely impressive in these conditions. It is not about economic advise, it is about being able to build something under such adversity.

Note: I don't know about Togo specifically, maybe it is different, with poor countries, that's the general idea.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#40

Post by typon »

galfarragem wrote: post #33
shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

> That perspective isn't one you'll find popular in the nations that should be able to deploy programs like these, but don't. Their voters don't see them as helping the poor, and don't see the poor as likely to invest any protective income into survival. That political discourse is easy to explain: while it is certainly helpful to "give the fish" to the starving one, it's less clear when you give the fish to "the idl…

Americans are so concerned with accidentally helping someone who doesn't deserve it that they'd rather sacrifice the well being of millions who do
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