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Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

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Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#21

Post by guerrilla »

roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

You comment only makes sense if you assume that they are poor of their own fault rather than due to a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrollable factors; and if you assume that the strategy can't be considered independently.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#22

Post by retention456 »

kspacewalk2 wrote: post #10
ctdonath wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US "poverty line" is at 80th percentile of world incomes.

Absolute numbers don't matter. Purchasing power matters.

Purchasing power parity (PPP) is accounting for both absolute exchange rates and differential purchasing power across different countries

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/09/how-america...

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#23

Post by nine_zeros »

Robotbeat wrote: post #15
ctdonath wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US "poverty line" is at 80th percentile of world incomes.

In part because we have used regulations to require you to be rich. In India the cheapest new street legal car is the Tato Nano, around $2500 (maybe small electric cars from China even less). But the cheapest new car in the US is the Chevy Spark at $13-14k. Building codes and zoning regulations mean there’s a minimum price you have to pay for housing in the US that’s around a factor of 10 higher than in much of the w…

If you are going to bring China and India to the conversation, you have to talk about the amazing range of high quality smartphones for $150

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#25

Post by throwaway0a5e »

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

>That kind of speed of development is absolutely possible, especially in richer nations

The richer you are the easier it is to justify pissing away resources inefficiently catering to stakeholders way down the totem pole.

Compare/contrast pretty much any publicly funded endeavor in the US/Canada/rich western Europe vs similar projects elsewhere. Sure the rich places get 10% more but they pay 90% more to do it.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#26

Post by whoomp12342 »

roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

innovation comes from thought diversity. Just a different culture and set of circumstances can certainly bear fruits of positive systematic change. Most important is to vet the concept, not the country.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#27

Post by cycomanic »

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

The issue is that in the west, and particular in the US, being poor is considered a character flaw. Rudger Bergman goes into a bit of detail on the history of that perception, which he attributes to the opposition against Nixon's UBI (at least in the US).

So what we now have in many western nations is a huge bureaucratic body to prevent fraud on social security systems which at the same time significantly increase hurdles to apply for the programs and what can be done with the help. On the other hand, the bureaucratic support to fight tax evasion especially by the super rich, is typically tiny.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#28

Post by roenxi »

guerrilla wrote: post #21
roenxi wrote: post #17

I dunno, is looking to "One of the World’s Poorest Countries" for economic advice really the best start? Even if they've done this well it seems risky to start trying to learn from the "successful" programs of poor states on the theory that maybe the things they are successful at are holding them back. I still haven't seen a definitive article on how the Chinese are running Shenzhen. There are probably useful and gen…

You comment only makes sense if you assume that they are poor of their own fault rather than due to a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrollable factors; and if you assume that the strategy can't be considered independently.

But the alternative you put is to assume that their failures are due to external forces and their success due to policy choices.

China also has a history of severe exploitation and other uncontrolled factors. They got wealthy with breathtaking speed. It is unwise to look past that to Togo.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#29

Post by yalogin »

In the US there seems to be nothing that people don’t make money on or exploit. No level of human suffering is left alone. Even school shootings are exploited by charlatans to make money and to benefit politically. In such a setting stimulus is the last thing we would get right, because stimulus has always been politicized.

Re: Togo made a digital government stimulus system in two weeks

#30

Post by hkt »

shakna wrote: post #12

> In Togo, a nation of about 8 million people where the average income is below $2 a day, it took the government less than two weeks to design and launch an all-digital system for delivering monthly payments to about a quarter of the adult population. People such as Bamaze, with no tax or payroll records, were identified as in need, enrolled in the program, and paid without any in-person contact. 10 days from incepti…

You're right about the desire to help. I would add that contracts and tendering are unlikely to have been involved, which probably means they built it in house. That helps enormously: I spent some time at the UK's ministry of justice and when they in sourced they built great, high value stuff in an incremental, iterative way which addressed the greatest pain. Rollouts were quick and testing was central. Nobody was padding a contract to inflate their pay or performance ratings, instead preferring to regularly demo to peers and test with users to demonstrate value.
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