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U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

reuters.com

281–290 of 347 posts

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bear in mind that (a) you're just pulling it from the atmosphere and burying it, not splitting the C from O2 so you can use it as fuel again, and (b) there are applications like long-haul jets and cement production where eliminating emissions isn't that easy. To put some numbers on (a), David MacKay's book has some numbers[1]: > The laws of physics say that the energy required must be at least 0.2 kWh per kg of CO2..…

> there are applications like long-haul jets and cement production where eliminating emissions isn't that easy. I disagree, there's an easy solution to eliminating those emissions: have zero long-haul jets and zero cement production. Before this gets (inevitably) downvoted, the more interesting question is why do we need either, what alternatives are there, how fundamentally we're willing to question our biases and e…

But why make it so binary?

We can make biofuel at some price. We can capture CO2 at some price. Build that into the product and there's no reason to reduce to zero.

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#282
post #243
post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always forget US gas prices are dollars per gallon . According to Google prices are currently less than a dollar a litre , in Europe the median seems to be about 1.8 dollars per litre (4.5 litres in a gallon). In the UK it is about 7.5 dollars per gallon. The USA seems addicted to cheap fuel. That addiction needs to end sometime, and if you collectively cry about prices raising to less than the levels the rest of t…

Consider the american built environment since WW2, gas at 7.50/gal would simply make many people’s daily lives unaffordable, and the most impacted people have the largest clout politically due to the rural bias at every level of our government. We would happily commit climate suicide first.

It would make people buy electric cars, or just trade 20 mpg SUVs for 40 mpg small cars.

If there is a rural bias, the solution would be to subsidize the rural areas to buy their votes. The solution to a problem of the commons, and the distribution of benefits, are separable (Coase Theorem).

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#283
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you expect humanity to get to pre-industrial revolution carbon dioxide levels without atmospheric extraction?

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Since you've been using HN primarily (exclusively?) for political/ideological battle, we've banned the account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#284
post #14

When these come up, I like to note that we likely also have to think about how to unwind the organizations that will build up around these practices. Unless every removal op is a vertically integrated loss center in govt or large emitters, there will inevitably be people in the chain whose livelihoods or profits or stockholders benefit from keeping the spigot on (both of money for removal, and of emissions that neces…

Profitable removal organizations would actually allow certain industries to transition more slowly.

Also, if you can close the money loop you can set up good incentives. If the money spigot is funded by the emitters, the capture orgs are directly incentivized to make capture cheaper to make it more attractive to emit, etc. Key to avoid direct public subsidy of said spigot though.

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're going to talk insanely expensive moonshots, maybe the US should install and maintain free point-of-emission carbon capture for anyone anywhere in the world who wants it, and put the technology behind it in the public domain for anyone who doesn't want it from us. Point of emission capture is at least technologically feasible.

As soon as you add that requirement to coal power plants, they become immediately uneconomic to build or operate. They are already borderline due to the fall in cost of renewables. With a meagre Carbon Tax of $15/tonne, coal costs double in the US. There's nothing that can be done to fix coal power apart from just shutting it all down.

If you're considering whether coal plants would exist at all, you need to compare to the price of things like batteries. (Unless we make a ton of nuclear.)

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#286
post #11

Wouldn't it be more efficient to remove CO2 from the sea where it has been accumulating as the oceans act as sinks for atmospheric pollutants and ocean acidification is actually more of a problem in the short term?

The concentration (in moles/volume) of CO2 in the ocean is higher than in the air, so it's not a bad idea.

One proposal was to do this electrolytically or by electrodialysis. This has been called "Direct Ocean Capture".

http://carbon.ycombinator.com/electro-geo-chemistry/

This may be considerably cheaper as a CO2 removal technology than DAC.

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CO₂ is not the only factor driving ecological damage and indeed, the mass extinction event currently in progress. There are simply too many humans for the way in which we as a species currently behave. Either we need single parent families, globally, for a few generations, to get numbers down to a sustainable level, or , we have to convince/force 7 billion people to accept and adhere to major changes in how they live…

You are so right but nobody wants to hear it. We are incredibly short-sighted and incapable of accepting inconvenient truths. Every child conceived (and their children) is an enormous burden to the earth and all of us (in the grand scale of things) but because more population is in the best interest of every individual family, city, region and country, no reduction will ever happen, at least not voluntarily.

I think you mean: every _first world_ child.

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're mixing up watts with dollars Watts cost dollars. You lose a lot of watts to heat by converting fossil fuels to CO2 and back. Overcoming those losses is quite optimistic. > That's the lowest estimate I have ever heard - do you have a source for that? 13,500 miles, the same as the average annual miles driven in the US: https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-d... > Sure, but economics of sca…

> Watts cost dollars. It's not that simple. For instance, when there's too much electricity on the European grid because, say, wind energy is particularly strong that day in Germany, producers need to pay for someone else to take that electricity. It has negative cost. This is rare for now, but it does limit the rollout of renewables. I thought the example of solar energy in the Sahara was rather convincing? It's a l…

> It's not that simple. For instance, when there's too much electricity on the European grid because, say, wind energy is particularly strong that day in Germany, producers need to pay for someone else to take that electricity. It has negative cost. This is rare for now, but it does limit the rollout of renewables.

If you don't have any external pressure or subsidies on you, you can turn off solar/wind in seconds. Renewables never have to pay those fees, only slow to ramp plants do.

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can drastically reduce our usage of jets though. There is no reason why people should be flying between SF and LA, or NYC and Boston. Those are well within comfortable range of high speed rail, which is electric. Once we’ve shifted all the excess air travel over to rail, that will leave a much smaller set of jet travel to offset.

If you look at a map of all airline flights there are many thousands of short-range flights. Replacing them all with trains would be interesting. Just the right-of-way property transactions would be daunting. Look at California as a lesson in how this can't be easily done. The other thing is, people move around. Airlines can change flights easily to map to demographic changes; that's a major strength of air travel. N…

> If you look at a map of all airline flights there are many thousands of short-range flights. Replacing them all with trains would be interesting.

Replacing “them all” is to set the bar unnecessarily high. I suspect there’s an 80/20 rule in effect here, and we should aim to replace the most popular short haul routes, not all of them. That’s why I specifically called out SF->LA. Major population centers within a few hundred miles of each other are prime HSR targets, and in countries with HSR we see a lot of passengers preferring rail for these exact types of trips.

There’s no reasonable world where every single small town gets a high speed rail running to it, but we shouldn’t set that as our goal. Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good. In particular there are nice stretches of good density along the coasts of the US that seem like prime targets for high speed rail, that would make travel more ecologically sound and comfortable for a large chunk of the population.

> Just the right-of-way property transactions would be daunting. Look at California as a lesson in how this can't be easily done.

And yet right of way transactions regularly pass for highway and highway expansions. Not without difficulty, but they get done. Letting rail projects grind to a halt while forcing road ones through is a political choice, not a law of nature.

> The other thing is, people move around. Airlines can change flights easily to map to demographic changes; that's a major strength of air travel. Not as easy to rip up tracks and start over.

This is only kind of true. Changing routes is easy only to a point. Expanding and refitting airports to handle increased traffic can be incredibly expensive and slow. LA is going to spend a huge amount of time and money trying to fix not just their airport, but also the transit to their airport which is currently overwhelmed.

My city is probably well on its way to its airport being incapable of handling the recent population growth. Expanding that airport and improving transit to it will be massively expensive, and require the eminent domain of a lot of property.

Secondly, while people do move around, it’s not like they’re throwing darts at the map and moving there. The places Americans are moving to are easily predictable; they’re moving to cities. You’re not going to wake up one day to discover that America has moved to the middle of nowhere Kansas.

Generally the cities that would make the best HSR targets are also the least likely to totally collapse in population too. NYC isn’t going anywhere, neither is Boston or Philadelphia. One would be forgiven not predicting the rise of say, Denver, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t at least be aiming for HSR to the obvious targets.

And thirdly, transit availability and where people move is a two way process. People like and care about access to transit options, and the quality of the local airport (and cost of flights) is already one thing that people consider when they move to a new location. There’s no reason to believe that access to HSR wouldn’t be the same. Especially since it’s possible to put HSR stations in far more convenient locations, given the lack of turbine noise to piss off the neighbors.

Re: U.S. sets goal to drive down cost of removing CO2 from atmosphere

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> there are applications like long-haul jets and cement production where eliminating emissions isn't that easy. I disagree, there's an easy solution to eliminating those emissions: have zero long-haul jets and zero cement production. Before this gets (inevitably) downvoted, the more interesting question is why do we need either, what alternatives are there, how fundamentally we're willing to question our biases and e…

I would say it's pretty dang tough to not have cement. What do you use for a house foundation? Many apartments are made of cement and essentially every building uses a cement foundation. Luckily, cement is not a big part of the total emissions. Neither is long haul travel, particularly. Short haul flights are about half of all passenger-miles in air travel, can be made fully electric, and long-haul and medium haul fl…

> Luckily, cement is not a big part of the total emissions.

This is patently false. A quick search shows a number of 8% of global CO2 going to cement production and use emissions.

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