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Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

forbes.com

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Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#101
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't have to say it because it's just the way that google ads work. It's a bidding-based system, so at the most basic level the person who bids the most wins the auction and their ad is shown. If the LTV of a customer is $100, and there's a 3% processing fee for web transactions, then Tinder will bid up to $97 to acquire a customer. So Apple has to pay at least that much to acquire that same customer i…

I agree that that's one way it could work, but it seems really unlikely to me that Apple would be willing to lose so much money on a project like this. Some other possibilities that I think are more likely: * Apple has a higher LTV estimate than Tinder for this traffic. * Tinder has less available capital, so they are not able to outbid Apple even though they think that they would still earn lots of money at that pri…

Remember, it's not that much money for Apple especially considering their whole app store business model depends on taking their 30% tax. Maybe we're talking about $50m/yr vs app store revenues of $10b (?) a year (and 70%+ margins per docs in recent court cases). They would absolutely be willing to lose this money if it extended their stranglehold on app developers - it's the same reason they fight tooth and nail in every jurisdiction around the world to prevent regulation of their app store behaviors and fees (Japan, Korea, Netherlands, UK, Australia, Arizona, US federal, etc). These lawyers probably cost them about $500m/yr (without revealing my identity trust me that thats a very reasonable estimate).

As to your bulletes points:

- Tinder is owned by Match Group who - before Tinder - spent 20 years building a paid acqusition machine. In order to do paid acquisition you have to deeply understand the LTV of your users. That methodology, refined iver years at Match was ported to Tinder (just read Matchs earnings calls). While Apple has access to all ybe transaction data of apps on iOS, so do then defelopers, who are highly resourced and highly motivated to understand their LTV/CAC. So no, I dont believe for a second that Applr has an advantage here. And even if they did, applr only collects 30% of the revenues - how could they ever guy profitable when bidding for the same slots as the developers who Are getting 70%?

- Capital - nope. Match produced close to a billion dollars a year in cash flow. HBO billions. Capital isn't an issue for either of them.

- I disproves this hypothesis with the LTV illustration above. To be clear: Theres no scenario where apple can be profitable on this spend when they can only ever get 30% of what the consumer spends.

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#102
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's both reasonable and important to criticize companies for behaving unethically even when it's not illegal. At the end of the day the "company" itself is incapable of doing anything. Humans are the ones actually making these decisions and then actually carrying them out. Unfortunately we don't and likely won't ever know who exactly did what. The best we can do is point at the company as a whole and say tha…

I agree with you. I think it is perfectly healthy to criticize companies and even boycott their products if we don't share their values. This is what I referred to by "controlling the market". Unfortunately this has historically provided very little results imo. What I was referring to is the expectation that this criticism can make the difference; I don't think it can, for mostly one single reason: if you happen to…

Public criticism does not change things only via boycott. I agree with you about boycotts and their at-best questionable usefulness.

The more meaningful aspects are the fact it creates a negative reputation, and that reputation impacts all interactions with the company. A bad reputation adds an additional cost to interacting with you (be it customers, workers, or business partners), and that needs to be constantly paid for somehow.

Additionally, there's some level of 'acceptableness' for the individuals of a company to do unethical things, which also plays a role. You addressed this in your 99% hypothetical, which I would agree with if it was done in a vacuum. However it's not. In practice if 1% of businesses were behaving in some way the rest refused on ethical grounds, lawmakers would be be falling over themselves to address it. Obviously such an example is unlikely to appear, but I hope you get my point. Moving the needle on acceptable behavior also moves the needle on what acceptable regulations of behavior.

I also largely agree on many of these factors being a dynamic balance. It's just that public criticism is already a factor in the current balance. Some level of criticism is required to maintain it, lest we move towards a balance that sees even more bad behavior.

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#103
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a) It is not against AdWords TOS provided you have permission to use their trademarked terms. Which Apple has since in the Developer agreement [1] they have been assigned permissions to use logos, trademarked terms etc in marketing material. b) Google is incentivised to tackle abuse within their system. It's ridiculous and baseless to say otherwise. Lack of integrity in an ad marketplace very easily can translate to…

a, b) yes c) regulations and laws trump contracts, not the other way around.

Not necessarily. You can waive your legal rights. e.g. agreeing to talk to the police waives your 5th Amendment right against self-incrimination.

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#104

It's actually an interesting question how nefarious or harmful this actually is. We obviously know why Apple is doing it and why the apps in question don't like it. But a couple things occurred to me: You could view this like Amazon giving away your book or android app in a promotion. As I understand it, they still pay the author as if it were a sale, so the author seemingly has nothong to complain about. Even that s…

Apple would ban you from app store and therefore all of iOS if you did in the app store what they are doing on Google (advertise to sell subscription via a different channel).

Its predatory monopolistic behavior.

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#105
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but if it's 70% of the remaining smaller pie of violence, that's still an improvement. If money wasn't a thing, you wouldn't be like "Relationships cause 70% of violence. Relationships are the root of all evil"

"70% of the remaining smaller pie of violence, that's still an improvement." What leads you to believe that the pie is smaller than it was without money? I have never seen any kind of statistics like "hunter gatherers had more wars". How you you even formulate the null hypothesis for this?

I'm not claiming that I can back up that statistic, just pointing out that the state of something being an issue in the status quo doesn't mean it couldn't have been a net advantage over what it replaced.

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#106

It's actually an interesting question how nefarious or harmful this actually is. We obviously know why Apple is doing it and why the apps in question don't like it. But a couple things occurred to me: You could view this like Amazon giving away your book or android app in a promotion. As I understand it, they still pay the author as if it were a sale, so the author seemingly has nothong to complain about. Even that s…

I run a big portfolio of mobile apps, and the discussion around this is misguided. It's not about Apple taking 30% of the revenue generated from these ads. It's about Apple driving up the user acquisition costs for these companies so much so that it become entirely uneconomical for them to buy ads that direct users to their own websites, and instead the campaigns that target users to download the app - which results…

[deleted]

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#107
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that that's one way it could work, but it seems really unlikely to me that Apple would be willing to lose so much money on a project like this. Some other possibilities that I think are more likely: * Apple has a higher LTV estimate than Tinder for this traffic. * Tinder has less available capital, so they are not able to outbid Apple even though they think that they would still earn lots of money at that pri…

Remember, it's not that much money for Apple especially considering their whole app store business model depends on taking their 30% tax. Maybe we're talking about $50m/yr vs app store revenues of $10b (?) a year (and 70%+ margins per docs in recent court cases). They would absolutely be willing to lose this money if it extended their stranglehold on app developers - it's the same reason they fight tooth and nail in…

Sorry, I don't understand how your response applies to my third point? Tinder would not be willing to spend $97/user because that is only worth it for users they would not otherwise acquire. In this case, I'm positing that these are users who already want to subscribe to Tinder, and are going to do it somewhere, the only question is whether Apple can get them to sign up through the IAP flow and take a 30% cut. If I'm thinking about this right, this means that it is worth just as much to Apple to get one of these users to sign up through IAP as it is worth to Tinder to get one of these users to sign up directly?

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#108
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Any sales generated by the ads would not have existed without the ad, and so it's not taking anything from the app developer. This argument is not very convincing in my opinion, as it looks like Apple is purchasing ads for brand keywords. If the ad wasn't there, the customer would go to the brands website, which would be ranked #1 without the ad.

Without the Apple's ad, wouldn't there be some _other_ ad instead? Presumably a competitor's, or the brand's own, paying the Google tax?

Yes, but if their own ad converts the user to a paying customer, they don't pay 30% of their revenue to Apple.

Re: Apple buying Google ads for high-value subscription apps

#109

It's actually an interesting question how nefarious or harmful this actually is. We obviously know why Apple is doing it and why the apps in question don't like it. But a couple things occurred to me: You could view this like Amazon giving away your book or android app in a promotion. As I understand it, they still pay the author as if it were a sale, so the author seemingly has nothong to complain about. Even that s…

I run a big portfolio of mobile apps, and the discussion around this is misguided. It's not about Apple taking 30% of the revenue generated from these ads. It's about Apple driving up the user acquisition costs for these companies so much so that it become entirely uneconomical for them to buy ads that direct users to their own websites, and instead the campaigns that target users to download the app - which results…

Thanks for this insight! Very interesting.
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