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How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

nytimes.com

81–90 of 145 posts

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#81
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this specific case, the Taliban still to this day doesn't believe bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, so their supposed offer to hand over bin Laden back then if they were given proof he was responsible probably wasn't made in good faith.

... I don't see how that follows, logically. These can all 3 be true: The Taliban does not believe that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. They would hand over bin Laden if they saw credible evidence. Their bar for credibility is quite high.

bin Laden said he did it. Many times.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#82
post #6

And a more recent airstrike… https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/17/politics/kabul-drone-strike-u...

This won't get coverage as it would put the blame on Biden administration. NYT is out to try and win support for the current administration, I don't believe they care about actual accountability for wrong doing.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/10/world/asia/us-air-strike-...

One of at least five NYT stories about the strike.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#83
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a slightly different case, but look at what happened last time Russia shot down an airliner ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 ): the perpetrators weren't exactly judged, but they got "disappeared", which is a form of punishment. For comparison, when the US shot down an airliner ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 ), the perpetrators... got decorated.

The cases couldn't be more different... There is no record of an investigation of how the Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 got shot down. Whereas the incident with the Iranian airliner almost looks like it was provoked by the Iranian side.

Yay, blaming the victims, I almost didn’t see that coming.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#84
post #61
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a slightly different case, but look at what happened last time Russia shot down an airliner ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_17 ): the perpetrators weren't exactly judged, but they got "disappeared", which is a form of punishment. For comparison, when the US shot down an airliner ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 ), the perpetrators... got decorated.

And their weapon system was retired. There were terrible crimes, but trying to make complex situations simple to suit your preferred narrative actually weakens your arguments.

That American perpetrators got decorated for this is a pretty simple and easily verifiable fact.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#85
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... I don't see how that follows, logically. These can all 3 be true: The Taliban does not believe that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. They would hand over bin Laden if they saw credible evidence. Their bar for credibility is quite high.

Why isn't bin Laden saying verbatim to the public that he's responsible enough? If that's not enough, what could the coalition forces possibly say that would convince the Taliban? There isn't high bar to cross. They've already decided what they think. That's what I mean by 'bad faith'.

Killing infidels is justifiable and completely ethical to some people.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Taliban refusal to hand over Osama bin Laden for his central role in 9/11 terrorism That's not entirely true. They wanted to negotiate his extradition. As any sovereign nation would. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te...

Exactly! US have an excuse all the time, surprisingly, people who represent educated segment don't either want to look to other side, I remember Taliban tried to have a negotiation with US, they tried to get their voice heard in western media, but failed, because everyone was blind sided, no one wanted to hear them and US anyway launched attack, 20 years later, everything is even more fucked up over there. Now we sho…

[deleted]

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#87
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... I don't see how that follows, logically. These can all 3 be true: The Taliban does not believe that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. They would hand over bin Laden if they saw credible evidence. Their bar for credibility is quite high.

Why isn't bin Laden saying verbatim to the public that he's responsible enough? If that's not enough, what could the coalition forces possibly say that would convince the Taliban? There isn't high bar to cross. They've already decided what they think. That's what I mean by 'bad faith'.

I cannot conclude logically that evidence sufficient for me means that anyone who disagrees is per se operating in bad faith.

I'm not going to argue for the Taliban. I have no idea whether they're good faith actors or not. Regardless, they're assholes, and I'm pretty sure, as far as I can ever be, that bin Laden is responsible.

But to be fair, "he claimed responsibility" isn't by itself iron-clad proof for anything. All kinds of people claim all kinds of false things for all kinds of reasons. We know this. The Taliban knows this. I could easily come up with a plausible, reasonable explanation why bin Laden would falsely make such a claim. You could too.

When someone rejects evidence that you find convincing, don't assume bad faith. Ask them what evidence they would accept no matter how unlikely. If they have something (e.g. "If I had a private meeting with bin Laden and he assured me personally..."), it means they just have a really high bar.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#88
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this specific case, the Taliban still to this day doesn't believe bin Laden was responsible for 9/11, so their supposed offer to hand over bin Laden back then if they were given proof he was responsible probably wasn't made in good faith.

... I don't see how that follows, logically. These can all 3 be true: The Taliban does not believe that bin Laden was responsible for 9/11. They would hand over bin Laden if they saw credible evidence. Their bar for credibility is quite high.

Bin Laden himself claimed responsibility on video in '04. If that isn't credible evidence, no evidence in the world could ever have been credible for them.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly! US have an excuse all the time, surprisingly, people who represent educated segment don't either want to look to other side, I remember Taliban tried to have a negotiation with US, they tried to get their voice heard in western media, but failed, because everyone was blind sided, no one wanted to hear them and US anyway launched attack, 20 years later, everything is even more fucked up over there. Now we sho…

Given the official statements of the Taliban (ie: that Osama Bin Laden didn't cause 9/11), what exactly is your proposal? Taliban were protecting Bin Laden, period. Their official stance on the subject is clearly false, and they were willing to go to war to provide sanctuary to Bin Laden. The main worry was that any such delays at this point would give Bin Laden more room to get away (and Bin Laden did escape: all th…

> So if anything, we should have pursued Bin Laden even more vigorously back then. The Taliban were successful in buying enough time for him to hide with their false diplomacy.

The problem was, real intelligence on the whereabouts of Bin Laden and Al Qaida in general was extremely rare. It was the vigorousness with which we pursued Al Qaida that helped really poison the relationship with local Afghans. You had local elites claiming that their rivals were somehow related to Al Qaida, which usually resulted in innocent people being taken into custody, tortured and/or killed. You had some legitimate leads (but often on mid-level operatives at best) that resulted in extremely risky special forces operations in remote and treacherous terrain - often resulting in both US and civilian casualties. You do this enough and people hate you, you've got an insurgency.

> We were at least successful in destroying the Al Qaeda training centers in Afghanistan (successfully located, blown up, and dismantled).

Real "training centers" were something of a white whale for the military in Afghanistan. A lot of the supposed Al Qaida "training" was taking place in Kunar and Nuristan provinces, in particularly inhospitable terrain. We'd run military operations in these remote Nuristani valleys, US troops would die, we'd almost never capture anything of value, and local people would slowly get fed up with their husbands/children/etc. getting accidentally blown up in airstrikes.

Re: How the U.S. hid an airstrike that killed dozens of civilians in Syria

#90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

agree with you, maybe they tried to protect Bin Laden. But there are multiple questions which should be answered: 1. are we 110% sure that Bin Laden ordered the attack? I am not trying to defend him, but you know there are many organizations who can do that attack, including multiple organizations funded by CIA (don't forget Bin Laden was initially funded by CIA), maybe government could prevent attack but didn't prev…

> 1. are we 110% sure that Bin Laden ordered the attack? Bin Laden attacked the USA in the 90s (the original twin tower attacks). Then issued a Fatwa declaring a Holy War against the USA ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fataw%C4%81_of_Osama_bin_Laden ). Bin Laden's writings on 9/11 are well published, even on Western Media ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver ). There's no doubt in anybody's min…

> Bin Laden attacked the USA in the 90s (the original twin tower attacks).

Thought it was the "other guy"..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramzi_Yousef

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