Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#121

Post by TheFreim » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:33 PM UTC

homo_ergaster wrote: post #117

TheFreim wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand your mindset, possibly you could expand a bit for me. Shouldn't the US try to improve China? Worst case scenario the US is hypocritical, but that doesn't mean it still shouldn't wield its power for good. Doesn't your position "make the perfect the enemy of the good"? I'm interested in hearing your response.

> Shouldn't the US try to improve China? The goal of US foreign policy has never been to improve the lives of people anywhere outside the US. A sibling comment points out that one of our closest allies in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy that publicly beheads dissidents and has incredibly sexist laws, yet the US does nothing, and we see nothing like the neo Cold War coverage that Xinjiang produce…

I don't disagree substantially, and I don't think you're a "conspiracy theorist", however I must say that you and many others seem to be reading into my question what I did not mean. I'm not asserting that the US has had positive impact, I'm asking whether or not they should have a positive impact despite internal issues still existing. Does that make sense?

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#122

Post by spamizbad » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 3:33 PM UTC

vincnetas wrote: post #52

spamizbad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a view I share but I think the general attitude of this so-called "owner" class roughly this: The average American isn't deserving enough of America's bounty, so why should they be entitled to any of it? If you want something you should work for it; you aren't entitled to it by place of birth.

but somehow you are entitled by inheritance. why should it be so? you should work for it.

I think the argument here is that you're free to do what you want with your wealth, so if its "leave it all to my kids" then that's totally fine and fairness is irrelevant.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#123

Post by mohanmcgeek » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 3:49 PM UTC

remarkEon wrote: post #45

mohanmcgeek wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia, France, Spanish crown, Ottoman, HRE all claimed to be successors of Rome at some point.

As did America

America surely uses a lot of symbolism from the Roman Republic but I am not so sure they have ever claimed to be the successors to the throne once held by Julius Caesar, as all the other ones mentioned above have.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#124

Post by Aunche » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

systemvoltage wrote: post #63

Aunche wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't go so far as to call it racism, but I do find it somewhat xenophobic to suggest that it is wrong to outsource you work to other countries. Why is a Chinese worker any less worthy of a job than an American one? $1 in in a developing country goes further than $10 in a developed one. Globalization has granted billions of people access to things we take for granted like electricity and heating.

We call ourselves “Developed”. It’s already implicitly throwing in the towel - there is nothing more to be done. We’ve already developed. This entire thinking and it’s psyche in our society feels like straight up propaganda. It used to be first-world and third-world. Chinese labor force isn’t going to help defend Taiwan by making tank gadgets for them. Investing in Chinese labor has so many issues. If we didn’t have…

The Rust Belt was primarily a product of Japan rather than China. It's only a very recent development where Chinese manufacturing jobs could have feasibly benefited American workers. Before the mid 2000s, they were mostly manufacturing cheap trinkets.

Outsourcing also freed how labor pool to other pursuits such as college and white collared jobs. Without a large pool of workers eager to leave to Rust Belt, Silicon Valley may not be the same place that it is today.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#125

Post by homo_ergaster » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

TheFreim wrote: post #121

homo_ergaster wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Shouldn't the US try to improve China? The goal of US foreign policy has never been to improve the lives of people anywhere outside the US. A sibling comment points out that one of our closest allies in the Middle East is Saudi Arabia, an absolute monarchy that publicly beheads dissidents and has incredibly sexist laws, yet the US does nothing, and we see nothing like the neo Cold War coverage that Xinjiang produce…

I don't disagree substantially, and I don't think you're a "conspiracy theorist", however I must say that you and many others seem to be reading into my question what I did not mean. I'm not asserting that the US has had positive impact, I'm asking whether or not they should have a positive impact despite internal issues still existing. Does that make sense?

Yeah I see your point. I think what I and others are saying is that given the US’s 70+ year track record at serving their own interests at the detriment of foreign people, there is no reason for them to completely change their goals with no reason. The US defense apparatus doesn’t exist to be a moral good or improve the lives of foreigners, it exists to serve the interests of wealthy Americans. The professed moral goals are propaganda and will always be false - they’ve had these justifications for every action they’ve taken from supporting death squads to installing dictators to topple democracies

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#126

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:34 PM UTC

fspeech wrote: post #37

arcticbull wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped soci…

Chinese ports are automated. American ones much less so. China has much less resistance to automation from unions.

Trade unions in China are controlled by the party and are more likely to promote business interests than worker interests. So the workers don’t really have much say in the manner.

There were lots of awkward conversations when my job in China told all the foreigners that they had to pay the Trade Union dues but would get no benefits from it.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#127

Post by seanmcdirmid » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:37 PM UTC

kelnos wrote: post #49

echelon wrote: post #16

I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up. We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay workers wages comparable to what they would get from working in factories at home (ie. not "US wages" since we can't compete on cost with China, Vietnam, etc.), but give them decent hours, a housing stipend, education for their kids, and a promise…

> I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up. The US is not, and has never been, a champion of immigration. Immigration has been seen as "people taking our jobs" pretty much since the founding of the country. Immigration has always been tolerated as a "necessary evil" by policymakers. > We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay work…

> The US is not, and has never been, a champion of immigration. Immigration has been seen as "people taking our jobs" pretty much since the founding of the country. Immigration has always been tolerated as a "necessary evil" by policymakers.

That isn’t true at all, if only because the US isn’t some homogenous being with one opinion. Immigration as a “necessary evil” is still pro immigration, vs a place like China where getting even a green card if you aren’t Han requires an act of god.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#128

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:39 PM UTC

onethought wrote: post #101

AussieWog93 wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dislike of the CCP is not Sinopobia, just as dislike of the Mob isn't anti-Italian. So many people really wish the CCP would just loosen their grip a bit so that foreigners/Westerners can have real, two-way relationships with Mainlanders. Honestly, at least in the circles I frequent, the biggest critics of the CCP are either (non-Mainland) Chinese themselves or Sinophiles. Other people simply don't care that much.

Do you mean CCP are popular within PRC? But less popular outside in the Chinese diaspora?

[deleted]

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#129

Post by spamizbad » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:42 PM UTC

rp1 wrote: post #13

spamizbad wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a view I share but I think the general attitude of this so-called "owner" class roughly this: The average American isn't deserving enough of America's bounty, so why should they be entitled to any of it? If you want something you should work for it; you aren't entitled to it by place of birth.

Why, in your opinion, do countries exist at all then?

It’s really not an argument against countries it’s more like an extreme form of “meritocracy” mixed in with various problematic views on resource allocation.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#130

Post by SyzygistSix » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 4:58 PM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #43

arcticbull wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped soci…

You're describing the future that doesn't yet exist, as though it already does. Tesla _tried_ to automate their manufacturing as much as it could and had to give it up. And it's run by some of the same folks who launch people into space and land the rockets afterwards - there was no shortage of technical capability, I'm sure. Now, I'm not arguing that automation isn't the "future", it is pretty clear that it is, but…

I think the issue with Tesla was the lack of time and capital to automate. Innovating that industry will take a lot of both. I doubt they have given up entirely, just paused because they had to be realistic with the production demands and available time in the timeframe in which they had to produce.