Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure • Hacker News Board

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#251

Post by catdevbrain » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

bool3max wrote: post #242

thrower123 wrote: post #226

Debit cards prey on poor people, who have been memed into thinking credit cards are dangerous. There is no good reason to use debit over credit in the US if you have the option, but I constantly see advice from people who should know better arguing in favor of debit. If someone steals your credit card and makes fraudulent purchases, your rent and heat and electricity bill checks aren't going to bounce while the bank…

Is that the only argument for credit over debit?

I guess everything in the US is controlled by fear. So for them this might be a legit argument. "What happens if someone breaks into your house?". "What happens when somebody robbed you?". "What happens when somebody uses your credit card to do fraudulent transactions?"

Guess what, having a debit card in the Netherlands gives you protection against all of the above. Luckily not many people are ruled by scare tactics over here.

Lost your debit card for some reason? Just a simple click in your online banking app on your phone is enough to block the current one and recieve a new card the day after.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#252

Post by jacekm » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:15 PM UTC

smabie wrote: post #80

p2t2p wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australian here. Don’t use credit card, setup a separate account for bills, direct debit everything from there, don’t keep anything big on your debit card and use it with Apple Pay everywhere. No fraud, no fees, no complex things and rules to remember.

Why would you ever not want to put something on a cc? It's quite literally free money (rewards/points + you can delay payments for a month and pay no interest)

In Poland I get rewards for using debit cards too, credit cards do not offer anything more in that regard. The rewards offered by bank are the same regardless of which type of card I use. They are in fact based on referral programs (bank gets a small percentage of a transaction if we use their link and they share that earning with us). Debit cards are free and the cheapest CC I can get from my bank is $10/year. And every month I would need to make sure that the CC is paid. There's nothing CC can offer me besides maybe building a credit score.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#253

Post by passerby1 » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:19 PM UTC

c22 wrote: post #176

eyelidlessness wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My last bank (US Bank, don’t bank with them) did this in a way where in one day where I had only one transaction which could overdraft they charged 6 overdrafts even though my net would have been positive. If I wasn’t (at the time) skilled at ~~kicking and screaming~~ advocating for myself I would have been out $180 plus whatever 30 cents they had calculated I went negative. Which (again at the time) was the differen…

Oh man, I banked with US Bank back in 2003/2004. One day I overdrafted my checking account by about $5. "Overdraft protection" kicked in and they automatically transferred money from my savings account, but not before charging a $25 fee that caused... another overdraft. This repeated automatically over a dozen times in one day to the tune of around $300. I noticed what was going on that evening and manually transferr…

There're several of stories of some level of craziness here in the thread. I wonder why none tried to sue bank? Are banks in the US really above the law? Or probably not too high to be sued, but enough to make good money.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#254

Post by beebeepka » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:20 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #94

rjzzleep wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's transaction reordering? 1. have $10 in your checking 2. pay $9 for steak 3. fill account with $500 4. buy sausage for $2 bank reorders it as 1. have $10 in your checking 2. pay $9 for steak 3. buy sausage for $2 4. charge overdraft 5. count $500 deposit Is that what banks would do? I faintly remember that really old accounts I had in Germany had overdraft capability, but for all newer(last decade or so) accoun…

Yes, that's exactly what they would do. Even better (for the bank's profits) is if you had lots of other smaller transactions that day too. They would re-order everything from largest-to-smallest, so it's: 1. have $10 in your checking 2. pay $9 for steak 3. buy sausage for $5 4. charge overdraft 5. buy milk for $3 6. charge another overdraft 7. pay $2 for parking 8. charge another overdraft 9. buy a pack of gum for $…

Dear gawd. I've never heard of this shit before and hope it's not a thing anywhere else. Amazing it's all legal. That's the very definition of fraud

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#255

Post by intarga » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

capableweb wrote: post #227

clippablematt wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Had five years or so of that awful cycle. It’s interesting when you meet people who haven’t experienced living under the brutality of the banking system. Overdraft, payday loans, high interest credit. They think it’s all fine. Fear of overdraft fees is a real class divider. One thing I really remember is being absolutely broke, and a guy from the bank calling to see if I’d be interested in taking on a credit card “we…

It seems to be a common theme that the ones who have been screwed by the banks or are currently being screwed by the banks are cheering for cryptocurrencies, while the ones with no experience of getting fucked themselves keep asking "But what problem does cryptocurrencies really solve? Seems useless to me because banks do the same thing"

I ask that question, not because I haven’t been screwed by the banking system, but because everyone I see in the crypto space is out to screw people even harder.

Your comment presupposes that crypto solves the problem of perverse incentives. Really, it just worsens them.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#256

Post by unicornmama » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:23 PM UTC

smallerfish wrote: post #32

I took a look through glassdoor reviews of stripe as a result of his pitch at the end - lots of complaints about work-life balance / being overworked. Any stripe engineers want to weigh in on that? Are there areas of the company that are better than others?

I mean it’s a hyper growth startup. Expect to haul ass.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#257

Post by passerby1 » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:24 PM UTC

xdennis wrote: post #199

eyelidlessness wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overdrafts were the second thing that came to mind, a decade into clawing my way out of poverty and just plain being broke. The first was the scam of debit cards and secured credit cards being treated fundamentally differently. They both operate basically the same way for customers (you’re only spending your own money, it’s not credit in the lending sense), but debit cards are a profit center with no credit reporting…

Debit cards are a fraud? Living on borrowed money is a fraud.

How about the printed money?

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#258

Post by mattcwilson » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

ironmagma wrote: post #105

lotsofpulp wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is just another way the financial system (including fintech startups) prey on the poor. This is the way a government preys on the poor by not making electronic transfer of money a utility. The businesses are just doing business, no one sets out and says I want to screw the poor. The prices simply reflect the risks to the business. If society wants to subsidize those risks for the poor, then it should by creati…

There’s a certain point where neglect becomes malice. The bystander effect has a name for a reason; it’s not the obvious way humans should behave.

Neither is compelling others to behave in a way that you, particularly, think is morally justified, and trying to lobby to have them forced to comply.

Working for a business that doesn’t also happen to be charity isn’t neglecting the needy. Charging rates that fairly reflect the value of your work isn’t malice to those who can’t or don’t want to pay your rates.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#259

Post by robot_no_419 » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:25 PM UTC

bool3max wrote: post #242

thrower123 wrote: post #226

Debit cards prey on poor people, who have been memed into thinking credit cards are dangerous. There is no good reason to use debit over credit in the US if you have the option, but I constantly see advice from people who should know better arguing in favor of debit. If someone steals your credit card and makes fraudulent purchases, your rent and heat and electricity bill checks aren't going to bounce while the bank…

Is that the only argument for credit over debit?

In the United States, paying with credit cards often rewards you with 1%-5% of the value you spent, among other things. It adds up to a lot over time, so everyone in the US should always being using credit cards whenever possible to secure those rewards.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#260

Post by NikolaeVarius » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 2:31 PM UTC

lottin wrote: post #235

chrisseaton wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well up to you but that’s irrational - it’s leaving money on the table and what’s more you’re actually paying for my free loan and my cash back and my protection and my free flights and not getting anything yourself, as I’m paying the same price for products as you.

It's not irrational, there's a whole bunch of other things you're not considering. For example, a debt creates a financial obligation and as such it diminishes one's personal autonomy. People who value their personal autonomy will take that into consideration before going into debt.

Its incredibly irrational.

You're shipping a ton of personal baggage under "personal autonomy".

Why even take part in economic transactions at that point. If your definition of autonomy is that extreme, the concept that someone might have something you want but don't have must be a alien concept