Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

news.ycombinator.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 276 posts

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#161

Post by randomdata »

kelleyk wrote: post #4

There are a number of points I'd like to disagree with, but to start: - $150,000 is much less than a top-flight engineer like the one you're describing might make; it's not out of the realm of possibility for what an engineer with a good pedigree might make his first year out of school, if he went to work for a big company. - The engineer went to school for four/five/six years and then went to work. The doctor who ea…

> The doctor who earns $300-400k went through a four-year university degree, four years of medical school, and a residency or fellowship before he started earning money.

The market doesn't care about what you have done to get to where you are. If you spent the better part of a decade to acquire a Ph.D, you are not entitled to earn more money waiting tables at the local restaurant.

The upper bounds of earning is only limited by the value provided by the work. A good doctor or lawyer can provide a lot of value (health and freedom are, to most people, the most important things in life) and they are usually in short supply, thus they can command the high rates.

If programming jobs top out at $150,000, it means that either there is no shortage of people to do the job, or that it is simply no value in having someone do the work for more. In the latter case, if true, means that programming really isn't that important.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#162

Post by pnathan »

kree10 wrote: post #140
petervandijck wrote: post #105

One data point: companies that hire programmers seem to work a lot harder at making it a fun/good place to work than companies that hire laywers. Perhaps programming is just more fun?

Yes, though I think this plays into the poster's point about respect/prestige. Right or wrong, a popular perception in the USA is that a lawyer wears nice clothes to work, and likes to unwind with a round of golf, fine scotch, and a cigar. Whereas a programmer is an overgrown teenager, wearing ripped jeans, playing video games, and drinking Red Bull. Of course the lawyer should earn more than that guy.

Yeah, I think it's important to have the 'professional' costume for that reason.

I mean, I've seen startups advertising their company kegs in recruiting. Like that's going to get you any respect from anyone but an early 20-something...

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#163

Post by hack_edu »

ra wrote: post #144
thomasgerbe wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funnily enough, many political representatives in China are engineers.

Could that be because they don't have to win a media driven popularity contest to 'win' office?

Or that they have thousands of years of history where civil servitude is a scholastic meritocracy.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#164

Post by sanderjd »

mgkimsal wrote: post #106
CrLf wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me start by stating that you reply is somewhat of an example of HN-bias... The world of programming is vast. Larger than "America", larger than Sillicon Valley, larger than the world of startups, and certainly much larger than the "elite" that regularly reads (and comments on) HN and pats each other in the back. Even if we accept that programmers are well-paid and respected (two different propositions) in the tec…

I'd taken to calling myself a 'digital garbageman' for a time, because that's essentially what I was. I had some corp jobs, and it was mostly cleaning up other peoples' code. I said it tongue-in-cheek, but I did feel that way, and eventually left corporate work to hang out my own shingle. This time around, I'm primarily solo, and sub out work to people to augment my time/skills. I've gotten much better about charging…

Certainly the 52-year-old developer all else being equal. Isn't this a complete no-brainer?

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#165

Post by cmhamill »

Spyro7 wrote: post #123

This is a fantastic post. It is well written, and I agree with many of the authors points. Far from being angry, I think that the majority of people reading here on HN actually appreciate this type of critical analysis, and I think that it is a shame that it had to be posted on a throwaway account. However, I would like to present some alternative viewpoints for a few of the issues brought up in this post. "As a doct…

I'd like to add another point to this: in the case of doctors, you've also got to include the various types of doctors. (As the son of a general practitioner, I'm particularly sensitive about this.)

General practitioners make wildly less than the various specialists which abound in the medical profession. Now, GPs can certainly make a good living; in rich areas >$200,000 a year isn't uncommon. At the same time, for, say, dermatologists, >$200,000 is the average salary [1].

(I, for one, think this is backwards: GPs, both in private practices and as hospitalists, are the primary diagnosticians and almost certainly save more lives than any other kind of doctor.)

And don't even get me started on residency; doctors deserve every ounce of geld they get for putting up with that.

Anyone, not directly relevant to OP, but I think that saying, "hey, doctors and lawyers are rich, we should be too" is a bit off the mark. Many doctors are rich. Not all.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#168

Post by patio11 »

Sukotto wrote: post #157
patio11 wrote: post #67

There are many people who sling code who make as much as a doctor or partner at a law firm. More than a few people on HN fit that description, actually. A partner at a law firm is a businessman first and an individual producer of lawyering second. He has people to do that for him. Many - but not all - ways to do extraordinarily well as a programmer involve becoming a businessman first and a code slinger forty-second.…

My girlfriend and her circle of friends loved Social Network. If I had reputational stock I'd be IPOing right now. In a relationship, IPO equates to "marriage". Note that the time/money requirements to satisfy each level of advancement in that arena (marriage, child1, child2, ...) grows exponentially. The relationship Cost/Benefit ratio works remarkably similarly with a business ipo actually. If you're headed in that…

I'm in the quiet period, so no comment.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#170

Post by tejaswiy »

kubrickslair wrote: post #147
16s wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India too. "If you are not an engineer, you are nothing" I was told that by a friend from India once.

I don't want to come off as arrogant but I should say this. People generally do not select engineering as a profession in India- it's one of the default professions for most of the middle class. I have been involved with computers since I was 6, so for me it was a pure choice. But most of my friends, some of them working for big name SV places don't really love or care about software or technology. In fact, some of t…

+1. I would hate to classify any Indian politician as an engineer. More like chose the easiest career path to get a decent amount of respect + a degree and moved into politics.

Influence can buy you grades and admissions in India :/

Post reply on HN