Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills • Hacker News Board

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#41

Post by systemvoltage » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 7:57 AM UTC

rp1 wrote: post #5

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #3

I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The US essentially allowed the government to be bought and paid for by foreign entities and is relying on said countries for most manufactured goods. So now the other country can essentially say "Our laws are your laws otherwise we're not going manufacture your go…

I think both Citizen's United and the allowance of asymmetric trade with China (e.g. China's currency manipulation, IP theft, restrictions on companies operating in China, etc.) are both symptoms of a much larger problem. The U.S. is being dismantled by the capitalist / owner class for personal profit. Very few decisions are made in the government that promote the long-term health of the system. This trend spans the…

It is still continuing. I’ll get flak but damn it Apple is leading outsourcing of manf. They have so much cash they don’t have any ideas.

Instead of cars and moving the headphone jack from one place to another, they should be investing in new forms of automation for manf.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#42

Post by kelnos » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

asplake wrote: post #30

lazyeye wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its quite simple. With the advent of globalisation the self-interest of the elites is no longer in alignment with the national interest. They can make money far more easily by employing Chinese workers, growing Chinese industry, than they do local. And of course, anyone that pushes back against this is (conveniently) a "xenophobic, racist, white supremacist, Trump-voting blah blah blah...".

That last part was both unnecessary and wrong. Globalisation has plenty of opponents on the left too.

I think it's too narrow to talk about it as simply "globalization". Globalization has done some really great things, like lifting millions of people out of poverty. But the US has also failed to keep itself competitive with China, and China has (unfairly, IMO, but I'm of course biased) taken advantage of the US's IP and talent (among other things) in order to increase their global influence and gain leverage over the countries that used to be economically "superior" to China.

I think ideology plays a part in why this is "bad", as well. As an American, I wouldn't mind so much if the next growing superpower believed in democratic principles. As much as I'm happy I was born in and grew up in the US, I wouldn't see a problem with a "better US" growing beyond the US in terms of economic and political power. But I'm not particularly comfortable with the idea of an authoritarian country in that position; China already constantly uses its political clout to censor US citizens and businesses, for example. I expect China's power over citizens of other countries, people who will never even set foot in China, to increase over time, and that worries me quite a bit. It often feels like our only hope is that China makes some huge strategic mistakes, or succumbs to unfixable/unknown structural issues.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#43

Post by m0zg » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:03 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #35

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #3

I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The US essentially allowed the government to be bought and paid for by foreign entities and is relying on said countries for most manufactured goods. So now the other country can essentially say "Our laws are your laws otherwise we're not going manufacture your go…

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped soci…

You're describing the future that doesn't yet exist, as though it already does. Tesla _tried_ to automate their manufacturing as much as it could and had to give it up. And it's run by some of the same folks who launch people into space and land the rockets afterwards - there was no shortage of technical capability, I'm sure.

Now, I'm not arguing that automation isn't the "future", it is pretty clear that it is, but that future is not here yet, and it won't be unless someone spends 20 years willing it into existence. At this point I'm not sure the US can even do it, and things are rapidly getting worse.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#44

Post by kelnos » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:04 AM UTC

redis_mlc wrote: post #14

lumost wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The underlying question is why? Surely this activity could have started in 1950,1920, 1890 or any other year. What change occurred that seemingly has removed any long term/societal concerns from the minds of leaders?

You could argue that Nixon improved relations with China to counter-balance USSR influence during the Cold War. It was obviously foolish to help China become an economic power since the CCP has been at war with the US since the end of WW2 (2 Taiwan Straits wars, 2 Korean wars, Vietnam war), largely driven by Maoist ideology. (The USSR was involved in stopping the Straits wars to prevent wider conflicts.) (The USSR de…

> Note that China has structural weaknesses that will diminish its power: they import 50% of their energy and food, and have a demographic problem that could cut their population in half. They also have serious flooding issues, with 100,000 questionable dams built since 1945.

This is the only thing that gives me hope, honestly. The West is too busy trying to play nice for whatever reason[0]. I think the only thing that will save us is China making catastrophic mistakes during their continuing rise to power, or the structural problems you mention that they may not be able to do anything about at this point.

[0] Any thoughts there? You seem to be pretty knowledgeable on this topic. My general assumption is that business interests like where China is going (a richer China means more and more access to a huge market), but don't care about the long-term effects to the US economy. But that sounds too simplistic to be the whole story.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#45

Post by remarkEon » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:12 AM UTC

mohanmcgeek wrote: post #31

chihuahua wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the Ottoman Empire cannot be considered a successor of Rome - did you mean the Byzantine Empire? (aka Eastern Roman Empire)

Russia, France, Spanish crown, Ottoman, HRE all claimed to be successors of Rome at some point.

As did America

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#46

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:15 AM UTC

m0zg wrote: post #43

arcticbull wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped soci…

You're describing the future that doesn't yet exist, as though it already does. Tesla _tried_ to automate their manufacturing as much as it could and had to give it up. And it's run by some of the same folks who launch people into space and land the rockets afterwards - there was no shortage of technical capability, I'm sure. Now, I'm not arguing that automation isn't the "future", it is pretty clear that it is, but…

[deleted]

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#47

Post by AussieWog93 » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:17 AM UTC

They're about 10 years too late and completely tone deaf. I don't see much be progress coming from a reminder to foreign companies that their access to the Chinese domestic market is subject to the arbitrary decisions of the CCP's top brass.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#48

Post by legulere » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:23 AM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #35

MeinBlutIstBlau wrote: post #3

I wonder if the onset of globalization and offshoring US factories to China on top of Citizens United will be remembered as the US's "Fall of Rome" moment. The US essentially allowed the government to be bought and paid for by foreign entities and is relying on said countries for most manufactured goods. So now the other country can essentially say "Our laws are your laws otherwise we're not going manufacture your go…

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped soci…

There's a lack of workers in fields that cannot be automated (social jobs, automators, ...) and automation just means that we can produce more efficiently which often lead to an increased demand according to Jevon's Paradox.

As long as our hunger for more is insatiable, there will always be more to be done, than we can do. With less consumption we could easily live with less work. The only problem is that maybe some people will not be qualified enough for work in the future.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#49

Post by kelnos » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:24 AM UTC

echelon wrote: post #16

I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up. We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay workers wages comparable to what they would get from working in factories at home (ie. not "US wages" since we can't compete on cost with China, Vietnam, etc.), but give them decent hours, a housing stipend, education for their kids, and a promise…

> I don't understand why America, long a champion of immigration, doesn't open the floodgates back up.

The US is not, and has never been, a champion of immigration. Immigration has been seen as "people taking our jobs" pretty much since the founding of the country. Immigration has always been tolerated as a "necessary evil" by policymakers.

> We could onshore factories and staff them from all over the world. Pay workers wages comparable to what they would get from working in factories at home (ie. not "US wages" since we can't compete on cost with China, Vietnam, etc.), but give them decent hours, a housing stipend, education for their kids, and a promise of US citizenship. Also offer them courses on American culture, English, etc. "Melting pot" rather than unsupported labor. We could make it really comfortable and attractive.

Where does all the money for that come from, though? Existing citizens will not tolerate the tax hikes. And if the companies are paying "home country" wages, the people who come here won't have any purchasing power. You're basically importing poverty if you do that, and are creating a weird hybrid of a "company town" system, which we know leads to abuse and exploitation.

> To keep natural born citizens from getting angry, we can offer tax incentives for people having children. We can pay kids $20/week to study and get good grades (not a bad idea - it especially incentivizes poorer kids!).

I don't think these suggestions are politically feasible. Many of the people who hate immigration would also see a bunch of that stuff as "welfare" and "handouts" and wouldn't want it.

Re: Chinese embassy lobbies U.S. business to oppose China bills

#50

Post by legulere » Sat, Nov 13, 2021, 8:26 AM UTC

fspeech wrote: post #37

arcticbull wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the US not capitalizing on China taking the undesirable, low-skill labor is the miss. The inescapable future of humanity is full automation of low-skill (and potentially higher skill) jobs, especially manufacturing. Rather than lament China taking these on before the robots could get to them and pining for a long-departed past, America could have used this huge head start as an advantage and shaped soci…

Chinese ports are automated. American ones much less so. China has much less resistance to automation from unions.

As a European, unions being against automation seems like a typical anti-union propaganda point. Can you show me some examples where unions acted out against automatisation?