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Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

bam.kalzumeus.com

51–60 of 398 posts

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#51
post #4

Use credit card, it’s the card issuers that are on the hook for fraud. It’ll help you build credit. Use debit when you don’t have the means or credit history.

Are there American banks that don't cover debit transactions with the same guarantees as credit card transactions? I've had two debit cards from two different large banks skimmed in the last five years, and both times the banks took care of it instantly. I think the whole "no coverage if you use debit" notion is many years out of date.

Even if things are taken care of in the end, with debit fraud the money leaves your bank account immediately and then it is up to you to make sure you get it back.

With credit card fraud it won't get to the point -- you dispute the charges before paying them back.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#52
post #4

Use credit card, it’s the card issuers that are on the hook for fraud. It’ll help you build credit. Use debit when you don’t have the means or credit history.

One of the biggest wins from credit cards (imo, of course) is reward programs. Getting a 1-3% discount on purchases is pretty nice (plus, obviously, fraud protection, etc.). However, some issuers are using crypto to claw back at this perk; for example, the Coinbase debit card can give you 4% back.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#53
post #4

Use credit card, it’s the card issuers that are on the hook for fraud. It’ll help you build credit. Use debit when you don’t have the means or credit history.

Are there American banks that don't cover debit transactions with the same guarantees as credit card transactions? I've had two debit cards from two different large banks skimmed in the last five years, and both times the banks took care of it instantly. I think the whole "no coverage if you use debit" notion is many years out of date.

Really the primary disadvantage these days is that you won't be able to access that part of your bank balance (often lower than most credit limits) for a bit of time until the bank either issues you a temporary credit or the dispute is resolved. This happened to me once in the earlier half of the 2010s and it was frustrating to have to wait for my balance to get restored.

There are enough banks in the US nowadays that cover debit fraud that any bank that doesn't do it will really stick out like a sore thumb and eventually lose their customers.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#54
post #4

Use credit card, it’s the card issuers that are on the hook for fraud. It’ll help you build credit. Use debit when you don’t have the means or credit history.

Are there American banks that don't cover debit transactions with the same guarantees as credit card transactions? I've had two debit cards from two different large banks skimmed in the last five years, and both times the banks took care of it instantly. I think the whole "no coverage if you use debit" notion is many years out of date.

With a debit card you’re relying on the bank’s good will. With a credit card it’s the law.

Also with credit you can dispute it before you pay it. With debit you’re trying to fix it up after your paid it.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#55

> An interesting wrinkle about net interest is that most customers don’t contribute much. In much of the U.S., median checking account balances at account creation are only around $3,000 Thats a lot of money not in crypto or stocks. Surprising.

If you’re using a credit card for most purchases, you still likely pay the bill with a checking account. You might also have to pay rent/mortgage from this account, so keeping a ~$3,000 buffer seems pretty healthy. (Let’s assume $1,500 for rent/mortgage[1], $1,500 for other monthly expenses, emergencies, plus any other buffer the account holder is comfortable with.)

1. Average rent seems to be around $1,100, and median mortgage payment is about $1,600 based on a quick search.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#56
post #43

The beginning of this article is a fairy tale that ignores what used to be one of the biggest drivers of revenue for banks: overdraft fees. Maybe the HN crowd has never been in a situation where they were auto-billed into a negative balance, which then caused an overdraft fee that then further drove their balance into negative territory, but this was a weekly/monthly fiasco for millions of Americans. I was once in a…

It's not just overdraft fees right? It's overdraft fees plus transaction reordering which makes the magic happen.

I'm still kind of mesmerized on this one, it felt like regulatory action almost happened, the most lucrative of the overdraft practices got limited circa 2009/2010, and then banks voluntarily toned it down and the regulators mostly looked the other way on things like reordering?

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#58
post #43

The beginning of this article is a fairy tale that ignores what used to be one of the biggest drivers of revenue for banks: overdraft fees. Maybe the HN crowd has never been in a situation where they were auto-billed into a negative balance, which then caused an overdraft fee that then further drove their balance into negative territory, but this was a weekly/monthly fiasco for millions of Americans. I was once in a…

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Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#59
> Typically, the apps offer their users a choice: payouts at the speed of banking, for free, or payouts at the speed of the Internet, for a small convenience fee. Cash App charges 1.5% with a minimum of a quarter.

This is just another way the financial system (including fintech startups) preys on the poor. If you are well off, you wouldn't want to pay any convenience fee for the privilege of receiving money from a business a few days earlier. In fact, you can think of it as interest: from first principles if someone delays a payment to you, theoretically they should pay more because of interest; now if you opt for waiting 3 days and saving the 1.5% convenience fee, you would effectively earn an interest of 1/(1-0.015)-1 = 1.5% in 3 days. That's not even an annualized figure. If annualized it would be 1.5%/3*365=122% implied annual interest rate. No one in their right mind who does not have cash flow issues would opt for receiving debit card payments with such a fee.

> Many report that it transforms the nature of their interaction with the underlying application; delivery driving for casual drivers becomes something that you can burst up to fill an immediate cash need or mentally allocate against a particular desired expenditure (e.g. “Drive for 3 hours to afford a night out starting immediately after you log off.”)

If your cash flow is not an issue and have credit, this is how you would handle it: let's drive for 3 hours, receive the full payment amount in a few days instead of immediately, and put all the charges from the night out on a credit card, whose bill will become due in a month or two, with no interest. But the poor doesn't have a bank account or a credit card, so they suffer. They pay more in fees. That's the injustice of the system.

Re: Debit cards are hidden financial infrastructure

#60
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that having $3,000 in a checking account is being wasteful because that's a "lot of money", you shouldn't be buying stocks or crypto.

I dont think that I thought the common amount deposited would be like 1/10th of what the article said

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