61–70 of 276 posts
PS: I am an Indian, working in one of those jobs.
I think one of the reasons programmers are not paid as much is that by and large, we are seen as interchangeable cogs. There are definitely exceptions, but I think the companies that think this way are large enough to set the market rate. For example, I used to work for a large defense company that probably had more software engineers than every startup in the world combined (we hired 10% of all CS graduates in the c…
For all of these things, when managed properly (i.e., rotate programmers enough, take care of documentation, have strict coding standards etc), you can get a new programmer who has had a 2 year degree in programming and 6 months of training on the specific technology up to speed in such a project in a week. That's not quite as interchangeable as a guy turning screws in a car factory, but it's not that far off, either.
I realize that everybody likes to thing that they are so special and that without them the world (and certainly their company) would grind to a halt), but for the vast majority of programmers, it's simply not true. And for those where it is true, there is a large part where it's only true because management allowed one person to become so entrenched in one place that they've made themselves indispensable. And not because of the nature of the work.
I think one of the reasons programmers are not paid as much is that by and large, we are seen as interchangeable cogs. There are definitely exceptions, but I think the companies that think this way are large enough to set the market rate. For example, I used to work for a large defense company that probably had more software engineers than every startup in the world combined (we hired 10% of all CS graduates in the c…
Of course, there's the union/doctor's association thing that keeps the supply short whereas programmers and "programmers" turn up almost everywhere.
Similarly programming skills vary a lot. Doctors and lawyers execute more and innovate less and they all have a basic level of knowledge that people are willing to pay for. Hiring a programmer is like hiring an artist: a good one will create lots of wealth while many can just fill in the blanks with something.
There's also the question that many doctors and lawyers are running their own clinic or law office, or they're shareholders of their "employer". There are a lot of programmers merely on the payroll. And being on the payroll only doesn't make you rich unless you can negotiate your salary or compensation to match your perceived personal capability. This hints that doctors and lawyers could be more fairly compared to entrepreneurs.
Is it good for the country that Silicon Valley, arguably the best-performing sector of the economy, has next to no influence in politics
Next to no influence in politics? Seriously? All the major software companies (GOOG, MSFT, APPL) spend enormous sums of money on lobbyists to influence the passing of favourable laws in Washington:
[Google] now has 12 lobbyists and lobbying-related professionals on staff here -- more than double the size of the standard corporate lobbying office -- and is continuing to add people.
Its in-house talent includes such veteran government insiders as communications director Robert Boorstin, a speechwriter and foreign policy adviser in the Clinton White House, and Jamie Brown, a White House lobbyist under President Bush.
Google has also hired some heavyweight outside help to lobby, including the Podesta Group, led by Democrat Anthony T. Podesta, and the law firm King & Spalding, led by former Republican senators Daniel R. Coats (Ind.) and Connie Mack (Fla.). To help steer through regulatory approvals in its proposed acquisition of DoubleClick, an online advertising company, Google recently retained the law firm Brownstein Hyatt Farber Schreck.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/06...
I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more. I think the reason we're seeing this is that programming has been commoditized quite successfully by an industry that saw they needed programmers but that did not know h…
The legal profession in America has a huge upstart politically as votes are required for many positions in the legal system, thus allowing the professionals to acquire experience with campaigns, raising money, taking over public office.
They create work for themselves with some hardwared awareness of their needs.
One doctor doesn't do all the job on yourself, sometimes does a bad job on their subject matter and you get to spend thousands to have this fixed.
Lawyers set up laws that everyone needs to follow and you need other lawyers to help you with that.
I don't even start talking about bankers ...
When programmers become congressmen or create a closed industry like medical services then we can talk about wealth y developers.
A partner at a law firm is a businessman first and an individual producer of lawyering second. He has people to do that for him. Many - but not all - ways to do extraordinarily well as a programmer involve becoming a businessman first and a code slinger forty-second. There are many people on HN who run consultancies. If you're unaware how the numbers shake out, ask them what percentage of the money they get came in from billable hours programming and what percentage came from e.g. the delta between what they charge for consultants and what they pay them, or the line-item fees which have no associated hours.
I keep giving this advice: stop calling yourself a programmer. You're right, it is anomalously highly paid and low status. So call yourself something else. If you sling code and make businesses serious money and are sophisticated about extracting that value, you will be quite highly paid indeed.
With regards to social status: most white collar laborers don't really have it. You could be a payroll clerk, so count your blessings. If you want it, either a) find a peer group where you have it or b) use code slinging to achieve something society values. You know how teachers have status? Try the line "I helped X million kids learn to read last year" out some time. (Helpful if it is true, obviously.). Or you can just wait until society moves in the direction of Programming is Sexy. (Not as far fetched as you might think. My girlfriend and her circle of friends loved Social Network. If I had reputational stock I'd be IPOing right now.)
I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more. I think the reason we're seeing this is that programming has been commoditized quite successfully by an industry that saw they needed programmers but that did not know h…
A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. There are quite a few 'programming' jobs for which having a CS degree is being overqualified, but let's say that a CS degree is the baseline. To become an MD, with the specialties that pay the amounts mentioned here, one needs to get a 4 year degree, then pass the MCAT, then go to medical school for 4 years, and then do 3 to 8 (!) years of residency, in which you do 60 hours on a slow week and have regular weekend and night shifts. So that's 11 to 16 years of studying. You only get paid in the residency, and even there only around US modal wage.
Never mind that nowhere in this time period, you are guaranteed a high-paying job. You can do your full residency and be told at the end that they don't consider you fit to be a doctor.
Do a quick total lifetime earnings comparison in Excel. Don't forget to include tuition and resulting student debt payments. You'll see that the general picture painted is flat out wrong.
(don't even get me started on lawyers - there is vast unemployment under lawyers, only a very small percentage work at firms that pay the amounts mentioned, and of those only a very small percentage make partner, after working 80 hour weeks for 20 years. Why do you think the US alcoholism rate is twice the national average amongst lawyers? Hint: not because they have the easy-money lifestyle being suggested here.)
HFT programmers earn a lot, so its all about creating value http://j.mp/p6Sl45
But unlike lawyers, doctors and bankers we don't have artificial barriers make the industry protected.