My pre-ordered copy of "The Dawn of Humanity", hot off the press, just arrived yesterday, from Bookshop.org, right on schedule. I am preparing to experience all my cherished preconceptions exploding.
I'm ashamed to admit I've never actually read any of Graeber's books, even though I'm fairly anarchist-leaning. I really need to change that. I didn't even know that he finished another one before he died, so I guess I'll have to add that to my list as well.
David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
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Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#92Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’m going to assume that you’re basing your opinion of Graeber on Brad DeLong’s unhinged attacks on his work and character. There are no factual mistakes in “Debt” that impact the solidity of Graeber’s conclusions or historical narratives, most inaccuracies were minor and corrected in subsequent editions without changing the character of the book or the arguments within. Many if not most of DeLong’s attacks of inaccu…
To name just one of Graeber's essential lies: he makes the claim that Federal Reserve issuing American debt is privately controlled and weaves an extensive chapter based in fundamental ways on this misapprehension. This is a lie that's not "minor" nor "a matter of interpretation" nor unrelated to the "character of the book or arguments within": it's a fundamental misapprehension of the most important debt instrument…
No, he does not. This is the only passage I can find where Graeber comes close to what you claim he wrote:
“The Federal Reserve—despite the name—is technically not part of the government at all, but a peculiar sort of public-private hybrid, a consortium of privately owned banks whose chairman is appointed by the United States president, with Congressional approval, but which otherwise operates without public oversight.”
As has been pointed out to you at least twice in the other comments, this is how the Federal Reserve describes itself. You’ve misremembered Graeber (here I will be charitable to you and not claim that you’ve lied) as saying the Fed is “privately controlled”, and your repeated assertions, as you’re backed into a corner in other threads, depends on this precise misremembering of what he actually wrote.
And furthermore, he does not “weave an entire chapter based in fundamental ways on this misapprehension”. The chapter is primarily about the role of the US military, its global domination, and ability to wage war in support of its economic interests, in the proliferation of the USD and its economic power. The paragraphs about the Fed and it’s precise association with the government is basically a sidebar.
> Statements of the form "I'm right because I'm important, and that's all I need to say" are not usually tolerated from almost anyone as a substitute for basic, bare truths. That they are accepted here is not only a comment on the character of Graeber but on the character of his followers.
I thought you were more acquainted with the long running dispute between Graeber, Delong, and a host of neoliberal/libertarian/Austrian economists. Apparently, you do not realize that the passage I quoted was from the final response that Graeber offered in their long running dispute, a dispute that included answers, in detail, of DeLong’s specious claims.
“I’m right because I am important” was not Graeber’s argument, his argument was along the lines of “if “Debt” was so riddled with obvious and crippling flaws, why as it been so influential in economics and anthropology? Why has it led to conferences and it’s own influential body of work that cites it? Why did it lead to a professorship at the London School of Economics? Collaborations with prominent economists?”
Given your attack on Graeber is riddled with errors, depends upon a misremembered quote, demonstrates ignorance of the content of his own long-running defense of his book, how are we now to judge your character as you have seen fit to judge me and his other supporters?
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#93“David saved my academic career, if not my life. When I faced expulsion from the LSE, having already left the University of Chicago due to the health issues, he wrote a compelling letter on my behalf when there was no reason for him to do so. I wasn’t even in his department.
Although he and I disagreed about a number of things, I will forever appreciate him sticking his neck out for me when there was little evidence to suggest it was worth doing.
Thanks David.”
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#94Earlier quoted context omitted.
David Graeber already had an answer to this with his idea of "bullshit jobs", wherein as the labor that is necessary to keep society running is slowly reduced or automated away entirely by technological advancement, more jobs are invented that serve no practical purpose other than to keep people performing the wage labor ritual of selling their time to capitalists (keep in mind Graeber was a left-wing anarchist) in o…
All Anarchists are left wing. AnCaps aren't anarchists. Anarchism is inherently socialist.
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#95Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm ashamed to admit I've never actually read any of Graeber's books, even though I'm fairly anarchist-leaning. I really need to change that. I didn't even know that he finished another one before he died, so I guess I'll have to add that to my list as well.
I am not an anarchist at all but I think he has some very good criticisms of a lot of fundamental beliefs among modern day economists. Economics as a profession is built upon a set of axioms or premises about human nature and society. Graeber cannot go toe to toe with modern economists with their equations but he does a brilliant job of tearing apart the assumptions of economists within the classical school of though…
That being said, I do think there is a serious problem in the way economics is often taught, and things like debt (and more broadly, anthropology) is part of the cure [2]
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics
[2] https://ravik.substack.com/p/does-learning-economics-make-yo...
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#96Earlier quoted context omitted.
Surprise, organizing takes an enormous amount of work, which anyone who's involved in any participatory, decentralized, leftist, or anarchist space will tell you. You may know this! Not clear from your response. Do you have a point about something he's factually incorrect about in his writings, or just that you (unlike many other Occupy participants) didn't like processes he created as much as others?
My point: Occupy had two goals that I kept hearing when I went: 1. the bailout and recovery from the crash of 2008 should help the victims of the crash, and not the perpetrators. And 2. "it's not about the policy, it's about the process." That is to say, the people camping out at Occupy were trying to evangelize the GA model for decision making to the world at large. Both failed miserably. And I blame the process. No…
What's the single best source for an outsider to become familiar with the problems Occupy's GA consensus process created? The more first-hand accounts the better, video or text.
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#97I felt like sharing this comment I left here when he passed, as it confirms for me the adoration many of us apparently felt for him. “David saved my academic career, if not my life. When I faced expulsion from the LSE, having already left the University of Chicago due to the health issues, he wrote a compelling letter on my behalf when there was no reason for him to do so. I wasn’t even in his department. Although he…
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#98Earlier quoted context omitted.
I am not an anarchist at all but I think he has some very good criticisms of a lot of fundamental beliefs among modern day economists. Economics as a profession is built upon a set of axioms or premises about human nature and society. Graeber cannot go toe to toe with modern economists with their equations but he does a brilliant job of tearing apart the assumptions of economists within the classical school of though…
I think modern economists have been acknowledging and quantifying the flaws in simplifying assumptions in economic models for decades [1]. That being said, I do think there is a serious problem in the way economics is often taught, and things like debt (and more broadly, anthropology) is part of the cure [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_economics [2] https://ravik.substack.com/p/does-learning-economic…
See https://www.thebehavioralscientist.com/articles/the-death-of... - for an overview.
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#99Earlier quoted context omitted.
There were plenty of Westerners who were concerned with inequality -- there were numerous failed peasant rebellions throughout Europe ever since the Middle Ages.
Having read too much history for fun and jobs, the comment sounds wrong. You can go back to the Roman republic to find people concerned about this (Gracchi brothers).
The claim isn't actually that inequality wasn't a topic, the claim is that discussing inequality within the framing that equality might actually be the natural state of thing, or at least just as natural… that was a novel topic at the time of Rousseau.
And sure, it's probably more fair to talk about why even that topic was burgeoning in popularity rather than to imply that it was truly novel.
Re: David Graeber’s Possible Worlds
#100Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'd recommend Debt . It made me rethink a lot of what I "knew" about money and economics. Bullshit Jobs is also interesting, but it's a much lighter, much more "pop" book. I haven't read this one yet to know if it's on the same level as Debt , but the reviews so far have suggested it is.
Debt is incredible, and I don't use that work lightly. For me I came away not with answers, but feeling like I could for the first time actually think about its big issues (money, economics, morality, community).