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Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

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Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#201

Post by cheriot »

vineyardmike wrote: post #176
khazhoux wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Make it legal to build homes where people live (looking at you California, specifically LA, SF, SV) People keep saying this, but it's just a flavor of trickle-down economics. The idea that if we just let developers build out more (sure, yes they should) that then housing prices would drop and cascade down to where homeless people could afford a place to live. That's such a huge stretch, especially in those areas yo…

> The idea that if we just let developers build out more (sure, yes they should) that then housing prices would drop and cascade down to where homeless people could afford a place to live Its obviously not true. Its a working theory - the more housing available, the lower the cost - is true. But SF has such a high demand you can probably double housing in SF and demand would not satiate. That said, seattle has built…

It's the ratio of homes to jobs. "How many homes does SF need?" is hard because it's a moving target as the city permits new office construction.

I ballparked the housing gap a while back by comparing the ratio of employment/residents with 30 years ago and came up with ~80,000 missing homes. That's in a city of 400,000 homes right now.

An imperfect measure for sure, but I think affordability is achievable if we stop prohibiting the solutions.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#202

Post by Redoubts »

atweiden wrote: post #190
jseliger wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See https://fullstackeconomics.com/how-luxury-apartment-building... for the empirical research refuting that point and agreeing with the basic supply-demand issue. The issue in Toronto is not just the anecdotal "new condo buildings" but how much housing Toronto has built per capita for the last several decades, which is almost certainly "too little." See the link in my original post to data from Tokyo, which is one o…

> See [...] for the empirical research refuting that point and agreeing with the basic supply-demand issue The issue I have with this analysis is where does it end? For example, if you assume most people eventually want to live in a townhome or similar, packing people in like sardines in the name of housing affordability is a kick-the-can solution. The unstated assumption of these researchers is it’s perfectly fine f…

Can we have just one Hong Kong then? You have 99% of America catering to your needs, why make it 100%?

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#203

Post by frankbreetz »

SeattleAltruist wrote: post #161

Homelessness expert here. This data set is garbage. HUD data only includes those in the federally mandated HMIS (Homeless Information Management System). This data excludes 1) people who don't access services; 2) people who access services from private, non-federally funded programs (like faith-based groups); and 3) typically undercounts those with SUD, mental-health issues, and especially people of color. A recent B…

Since the reports main premises is that the number of homeless hasn't changed, does it matter that the groups you mention are left out?

Is there reason to believe the groups that are under counted experienced a larger increase the the groups that were included?

It seems the data collection has been consistent, so the conclusion of the article seems correct.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#204

Post by chii »

stillbourne wrote: post #196
chii wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm making good money and barley able to pay rent. How can this be both true? If you can barely make rent, it must be that you're not making good money. Surely good money means you have excess after paying all necessities. If you mistakenly believe you're making good money, but is in actual fact struggling, you must start looking for a higher paying job, lest you end up homeless due to a sudden economic shock or ac…

The apartment I rented for $1400 a month in 2015 is now $2200. It's still the cheapest in my neighborhood. Meanwhile I'm still making the same amount of money, I've hopped a couple jobs but the wages are stagnant. Also I don't like the tone of your voice you seem to be accusing me of some sort of moral failing for not making enough money. I make what's average for a developer in Denver. I'm putting as much as I can i…

I don't mean to accuse you of any failings (moral or otherwise). I meant to argue that a lot of people may mistakenly believe they're well paid, because in the past when they started their job, they were indeed well paid. But as time goes by, the situation changes, but the person doesn't make any changes and thus, get into a situation where they cannot fix themselves.

So diagnosing a problem early, and making corrections early, before the problem becomes insurmountable, is the right way to fix it.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#205

Post by pgcj_poster »

rp1 wrote: post #157
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>yet people who live in cities with large homeless populations will tell you how disruptive they can be. In NYC, a homeless person getting in your subway car ruins the entire ride. I dunno man. I've ridden Boston and DC light rail systems pretty extensively (and NYC to a small extent) and never had an obviously homeless person ruin my ride. Heck, I can't even think of a specific instance where one did anything of not…

Just ask anyone in NYC if this is familiar: “Excuse me everyone. I’m sorry to bother you. My name is Mark and I’m homeless. I’m between jobs right now and I have two kids. If anyone could spare a few cents or even a dollar, then I would really appreciate it. God bless you.” Happened multiple times a day on my commute.

And that was enough to ruin your entire ride?

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#206

Post by StanislavPetrov »

zwkrt wrote: post #153
agumonkey wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this first hand and its difficult to comprehend. Some people would rather sleep in dead cold winter than to be in shelters. That's worth investigating...

I worked on a shelter in Seattle for a year. The biggest reason people wouldn’t come in is because they needed to check in at a regular time every day, which is a ridiculous requirement. Other shelters were even more stringent, with no smoking (tobacco) or breathalyzer tests, needing to attend daily prayer, and/or daily social worker check-ins. The shelters are run like the residents are children. The problem is that…

Violence is a huge factor why people avoid shelters here in New York. They are filled with people who should be on Riker's Island or were recently released who regularly prey on other shelter dwellers. Incompetent City Hall bureaucrats are unwilling to address the problem, waving their finger in the air and crying about abolishing prisons. Having the autonomy to come and go as you please and live the way you want in a shelter is important, but even more important is feeling relatively confident you won't be robbed, raped or stabbed.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#207

Post by forgotmypw17 »

mulmen wrote: post #112
forgotmypw17 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that camping should be legitimized and allowed. For example, I saw in LA camping areas being cleaned by city workers peacefully (with a token police car watching over) and it seemed like a nice middle ground.

Do you mean dedicated camping areas or putting tents in existing public parks? Something like https://campsecondchance.rumblecrash.com/ but for tents?

Honestly, I don't know exactly. I haven't thought this through in detail.

I just think that living without being involved with a building and such is valid, and I'd like to see it recognized.

I believe in harmonious co-existence, so I guess I see it as "anywhere it's not in someone's way", which is what I've practiced for lack of a better option, though I usually don't use a tent in the city.

I think it is legitimate and valid for an individual to exist and live without being involved in paperwork, joining some kind of program, etc.

And I support anyone going that way.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#208

Post by ianhawes »

bsder wrote: post #191
coryrc wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

#2 people won't let you build shelters where it's affordable to do so. Seattle's homeless shelters should be built outside Moses Lake, not where a studio costs $300k+. For the amount we already spend, every single chronically homeless person could be housed in dorms built out there and pay for the social workers. Since they aren't doing that, it's clear the real motivation is not to help the homeless.

Shelters won't fix the issue. San Francisco did a breakdown on their homeless. Almost 75% have some chronic health problem. 15% have a traumatic brain injury . That requires facilities for long term medical care. And it basically means universal healthcare. Unfortunately this puts us back to "You know all those facilities that we closed back in the 70s? Yeah, closing them was a stupid idea and we needed to fix them i…

It has been talked about ad nauseam that the closure of mental health facilities in the 70s has hurt us with chronic mental health issues today.

The problem is that even if we did re-open them today, staffing them would be a nightmare. There is a nearby mental health facility run by my state. They simply do not have enough employees and cannot fill positions and it’s an issue that has existed since before the pandemic.

It needs to happen, but it won’t be easy, so it probably won’t happen.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#209

Post by mulmen »

forgotmypw17 wrote: post #207
mulmen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you mean dedicated camping areas or putting tents in existing public parks? Something like https://campsecondchance.rumblecrash.com/ but for tents?

Honestly, I don't know exactly. I haven't thought this through in detail. I just think that living without being involved with a building and such is valid, and I'd like to see it recognized. I believe in harmonious co-existence, so I guess I see it as "anywhere it's not in someone's way", which is what I've practiced for lack of a better option, though I usually don't use a tent in the city. I think it is legitimate…

> I see it as "anywhere it's not in someone's way"

I think that's a reasonable take.

I don't think that living in a public park is a valid lifestyle choice. Those places can't serve their purpose as public areas for recreation if they are also someone's home. I understand that people do it now because they are desperate. We should provide them with better options. Or at least acceptable options that allow the rest of the citizens of the city to also live their lives.

I am not opposed to dedicated property or areas for tent living, but it can't be in existing parks or other public spaces like sidewalks and transit facilities. And there have to be amenities such as showers, bathrooms and trash service. Essentially a state campground in the city.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#210

Post by StanislavPetrov »

noahtallen wrote: post #71
rp1 wrote: post #29

This data is interesting because it illustrates how few chronic homeless people there are, and yet people who live in cities with large homeless populations will tell you how disruptive they can be. In NYC, a homeless person getting in your subway car ruins the entire ride. This tiny portion of the population has an outsized impact on everyone else. For this reason, among others, society should find some help for the…

Definitely. As an example, say you walk in your neighborhood to the transit station. A single encounter with someone with a mental health issue will be enough to give you the impression that things are worse than they are. One isolated instance of feeling unsafe had an outsized impact on how you feel about the neighborhood in general. It’s just human! And unfortunately, in west coast cities, it’s not even that isolat…

>That’s why people see it as a crisis: a lot of people in west coast cities feel increasingly unsafe.

It's certainly not just west coast cities where this is happening.

>So thousands of people might get a subconscious feeling of being unsafe, just from a small number of people who might not even be acting in unsafe ways.

In large part, it is a small number of people who make the masses feel unsafe. The issue recently has been the unwillingness or inability of authorities on every level of government to deal effectively with the small number of people causing the problems. Here in New York a series of actions have worked to make these problems far worse. Among other things, "bail reform" was passed, which eliminates holds on all but the most violent of criminals. This means that instead of removing the relatively small number of people on the street engaging in violent, anti-social and predatory behavior, they are able to roam free and remain a menace. You can't have a functional society if violent and/or mentally ill people are free to roam the streets and assault random passersby. You can't have a safe society when people caught possessing and using illegal firearms are simply released back onto the street. You can't have a decent society when street gangs are battling on the corners to control the open-air drug markets that have sprung up all over the city. And instead of dealing with, or even acknowledging these problems, officials in Albany and city hall spew rhetoric about mass incarceration and white supremacy.

The most basic and important job for any government is so maintain a basic, minimum level of public safety. Without that, nothing else they do much matters.

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