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Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

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Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#31

Post by csee »

paxys wrote: post #22

> There are some exceptions. For one thing, despite being close to California, Nevada and some of the Montana-esque states saw big decreases in certain categories. Someone people would look at this and go wow, Nevada and the rest did a great job providing shelters and help to their homeless. I think a more realistic answer is that they just shipped them to California.

Evidence? I've read articles talking about homeless being shipped both out of CA and into CA, but no solid reporting that quantifies the gap between those two flows.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#32

Post by epistasis »

paxys wrote: post #22

> There are some exceptions. For one thing, despite being close to California, Nevada and some of the Montana-esque states saw big decreases in certain categories. Someone people would look at this and go wow, Nevada and the rest did a great job providing shelters and help to their homeless. I think a more realistic answer is that they just shipped them to California.

The data doesn't really seem to support this, and my personal experience doesn't either. Most homeless people in my Californian town were living nearby when they became homeless. And though I didn't go to high school here, friends who did recognize people they grew up among the homeless.

There's a far bigger difference between California and its neighbors: housing costs and availability of housing even for those with money. I have known many well employed people in my town that have not been able to get an apartment even after applying for upwards of 20 apartments. When paired with application fees, that means that these people spend $500-$1000 merely on application fees before they finally get into an apartment.

That awful situation doesn't happen in Montana or Nevada, as far as I know.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#33

Post by crowbahr »

rp1 wrote: post #29

This data is interesting because it illustrates how few chronic homeless people there are, and yet people who live in cities with large homeless populations will tell you how disruptive they can be. In NYC, a homeless person getting in your subway car ruins the entire ride. This tiny portion of the population has an outsized impact on everyone else. For this reason, among others, society should find some help for the…

> In NYC, a homeless person getting in your subway car ruins the entire ride

I've ridden with homeless in the same car as me plenty of times and only occasionally will they be disruptive.

I'm far more irked with showtime than with the occasional sleeping down-on-his-luck guy.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#34

Post by whakim »

paxys wrote: post #22

> There are some exceptions. For one thing, despite being close to California, Nevada and some of the Montana-esque states saw big decreases in certain categories. Someone people would look at this and go wow, Nevada and the rest did a great job providing shelters and help to their homeless. I think a more realistic answer is that they just shipped them to California.

I don't think this is true because it is non-chronic homelessness which decreased in Nevada. Is there any evidence for this theory?

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#35

Post by mulmen »

cheriot wrote: post #26
mulmen wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? Where do you build these dorms? Are there barriers to living in these dorms? Sobriety requirements, job searching, etc? We should definitely try to solve this but I don't think it is simple at all.

> What do you do if someone wants to sleep on the street? When all of the available shelters are full this is not a relevant question. > Where do you build these dorms? Near transit so people that can't afford a car can get around. There's not a shortage of underutilized land in west coast cities. > Are there barriers to living in these dorms? Sobriety requirements, job searching, etc? no, none of those situations ar…

> When all of the available shelters are full this is not a relevant question.

It is relevant when we are talking about building more housing. Why build something if people won't use it?

> Near transit so people that can't afford a car can get around. There's not a shortage of underutilized land in west coast cities.

Underutilized land near transit? What do you do about the NIMBYs?

> no, none of those situations are improved by leaving someone outside.

Of course, but do you want to live in a shelter with people doing drugs? Should there be some that are drug friendly and some that aren't?

> There are complex problems in our society, but not having enough bedrooms has a simple solution: build more bedrooms.

Actually providing public housing isn't simple though. We have a long history of trying all kinds of approaches that didn't work for whatever reason. There's no simple answer.

> Someone is going to have a better chance finding a job if they get a good night sleep and have a place to shower.

This assumes they want to find a job though.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#36

Post by lostinquebec »

I think the articles problem is the lack of a definition of "crisis", and that leads to a bad mismatch between the headline and what is a reasonable look at the data.

My issues with the article are:

It starts from a too high aggregation level - almost no one is homeless in California, they are homeless usually in a very narrow area e.g. within 500 metres of bridge X.

Percentage change in raw numbers are not a good way to measure "crisis", and especially not at a state or city aggregated level. It seems more like traffic to me. Even in peak hour traffic, many roads are free of traffic, and the worst affected roads are those where the level of cars exceeds the roads ability to cope. That happens in a thin range of total cars per minute for specific roads, not due to X% increase overall. The same is true of homelessness in a city vs ... let's call them "hotspots".

Perhaps even more important than numbers in specific areas is the actual conditions homelessness creates in those areas. "Bad conditions" could be everything from human faeces on the street increasing, to murders, over doses, disease and unsanitary conditions, and it is possible for "bad conditions" to decrease and homeless numbers go up, or visa versa. That is harder to measure for sure, but probably closer to what most people mean by crisis.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#37

Post by cheriot »

nradov wrote: post #21
cheriot wrote: post #9

We're a country of 350,000,000 people. Leaving 500,000 outside simply because municipalities don't want them around is inexcusable. Solution in two parts 1. Make it legal to build homes where people live (looking at you California, specifically LA, SF, SV) 2. Build dorm style shelters for anyone that would otherwise sleep outside There's complicating issues like not enough addiction treatment and mental health facili…

We absolutely should build more homeless shelters. However many homeless people refuse to stay in current dorm style shelters because they don't allow drug use, or pets, or the other residents are dangerous.

This is a debate that comes up and I'm only familiar with the specifics in San Francisco. I won't claim it's the same anywhere else.

The shelters are full so the obvious problem is not people refusing to sleep in them.

At the same time, many of the "offers" of going inside are disingenuous. People giving up all of their belongings (specifically tent and camping stove), leaving loved ones, and the promised shelter is only guaranteed for a couple weeks.

When I say dorm style shelters I specifically mean each person has a door to lock and feel safe behind. Most current shelters are dozens of cots in a large room. I wouldn't feel safe there either.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#38

Post by cheriot »

nostrebored wrote: post #24
cheriot wrote: post #9

We're a country of 350,000,000 people. Leaving 500,000 outside simply because municipalities don't want them around is inexcusable. Solution in two parts 1. Make it legal to build homes where people live (looking at you California, specifically LA, SF, SV) 2. Build dorm style shelters for anyone that would otherwise sleep outside There's complicating issues like not enough addiction treatment and mental health facili…

The problem is that people in the U.S. so often only see homelessness through the lens of where they live. Homelessness is a unique problem in each city. For example, the west coast has favorable weather and a history of being a destination for people after they are released from prisons or mental facilities. In cities on the east coast there is more leftist-narrative style homelessness: people who were depending on…

"But in all instances there is typically an oversupply of homeless shelters that people refuse to use"

What's a west coast city with empty shelters? The ones in my town are full.

Re: Breakdown of data on homeless populations across the U.S.

#40

Post by b9a2cab5 »

crowbahr wrote: post #33
rp1 wrote: post #29

This data is interesting because it illustrates how few chronic homeless people there are, and yet people who live in cities with large homeless populations will tell you how disruptive they can be. In NYC, a homeless person getting in your subway car ruins the entire ride. This tiny portion of the population has an outsized impact on everyone else. For this reason, among others, society should find some help for the…

> In NYC, a homeless person getting in your subway car ruins the entire ride I've ridden with homeless in the same car as me plenty of times and only occasionally will they be disruptive. I'm far more irked with showtime than with the occasional sleeping down-on-his-luck guy.

Not sure what your meaning of disruptive is but I would define "ruins the entire ride" as making the entire car smell like urine and feces. I've also gotten on buses where it is plainly apparent someone peed on the bus floor.
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