Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#11

Post by gamache » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:33 PM UTC

genmon wrote: post #5

This is crazy petty, I know, but the article starts with “You’ve never heard of Dan or Bob. But you should have.” I mean, I do know about VisiCalc. But even if I didn’t, don’t try to shame me for it — learning is awesome. This kind of negging from a blog post always makes me dismiss it as linkbait even when the subject matter (as with this piece) is actually pretty good.

I don't find it petty at all. Authors who resort to these tricks for positive effects should answer to the negative effects too.

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#12

Post by rylandking » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

gamache wrote: post #2

That's a nice snippet of the original source code! Does anyone recognize the language? Googling tells me that VisiCalc was written in Apple II (6502) assembly, but this is clearly not that.

Yeah, pretty cool to see a photo of that. It was coded in assembler, first for the MOS Technology 6502 microprocessor used in the Apple II.

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#13

Post by mikestew » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:35 PM UTC

gamache wrote: post #2

That's a nice snippet of the original source code! Does anyone recognize the language? Googling tells me that VisiCalc was written in Apple II (6502) assembly, but this is clearly not that.

Looks like macro-heavy assembly to me. If one is not familiar with macro assemblers, in summary you could write your own language in macro assembler. And some did, which makes for a great debugging session if you're the one that has to fix it long after the original dev left.

This page explains better than I ever will: https://www.tutorialspoint.com/assembly_programming/assembly...

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#14

Post by rylandking » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

StevePerkins wrote: post #10

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #4

The headline on the article (and the tag, from what I can see) is "The 20KB Computer Program That Changed The World"; the title used here seems like it's deliberately reaching for an anti-Apple spin. I mean, WordPerfect absolutely sold hundreds of thousands of DOS computers, but "Microsoft's early success stemmed from a [insert size of WordPerfect] program they didn't make" would...raise eyebrows, wouldn't it?

Yes, the title is clickbait. But there has been endless snide commentary over the past 4-5 decades about Excel and Word being ripoffs of other companies' inventions. Hell, Microsoft famously didn't develop MS-DOS !

DOS = disk operating system for anyone curious

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#15

Post by gamache » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:37 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #9

gamache wrote: post #2

That's a nice snippet of the original source code! Does anyone recognize the language? Googling tells me that VisiCalc was written in Apple II (6502) assembly, but this is clearly not that.

I imagine the answer is somewhere in here: http://rmf.vc/implementingvisicalc

Great link! The answer is that it's written in a custom 6502 assembler macro language that abstracted over looping, and the macros were an extension of a 6502 assembler that was hosted on Multics.

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#16

Post by nacs » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:38 PM UTC

rylandking wrote: post #6

timthorn wrote: post #3

Not sure I'd have called 20kB tiny at the time!

True! Bob Frankston actually worked super hard to get VisiCalc's code to fit inside 16KBs so it could be used on the lower-end Apple II. But he couldn't make it happen. So it only ended up as usable on the more expensive $2,500 Apple II

Nowadays, they'd just cut features from the 20KB version to make it fit into 16KB and sell it as the Standard edition (and sell the full 20KB one as the "Premium HD+" edition).

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#17

Post by M0r13n » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:40 PM UTC

Great example that good software is more important than good hardware. The best hardware will not sell if the user experience is poor due to bad software. The opposite is much easier. As long as the software works reasonably well, customers are more likely to overlook problems in the hardware. That's why there are still so many crappy Windows laptops. The screen is bad, the keyboard is creaky, and the display is from 2010, but Windows works for most users. So people buy.

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#18

Post by gamache » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:41 PM UTC

rylandking wrote: post #14

StevePerkins wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the title is clickbait. But there has been endless snide commentary over the past 4-5 decades about Excel and Word being ripoffs of other companies' inventions. Hell, Microsoft famously didn't develop MS-DOS !

DOS = disk operating system for anyone curious

disk = an obsolete long-term storage medium, in case anyone was wondering

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#19

Post by ep103 » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:43 PM UTC

gamache wrote: post #18

rylandking wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DOS = disk operating system for anyone curious

disk = an obsolete long-term storage medium, in case anyone was wondering

storage medium = what people used before we all ascended to the cloud, in case anyone was wondering

Re: Apple's early success stemmed from a tiny 20kb computer program they didn't make

#20

Post by mwfunk » Thu, Nov 11, 2021, 6:44 PM UTC

Really the entire personal computer industry's early success was due to VisiCalc, followed by Lotus 1-2-3. Likewise for WordStar, then WordPerfect. It was the first thing I ever heard referred to in the press as a "killer app", which I think of every time someone here makes the claim that nobody called applications "apps" before the iOS App Store.