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Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

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Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#41

Post by hunterb123 »

dexwiz wrote: post #35
hunterb123 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems more like variety. React is in a league of it's own with React Native. For web tech Svelte is cool, for app tech it's not on the radar. I used to be a web developer, now I'm a React Native / RNW developer. I don't use web tech unless I'm making a simple web page, when I do I use vanilla HTML/CSS/optional JS. You get a web app for free when you make a RN app. You can share 95% of code among 5 platforms. (web, wi…

How is RN? I have seen several teams try to consolidate their App Devs into RN devs, only to split back into iOS/Android devs. From what I’m told, if your app could be a webpage, RN is great. But if you need to really leverage the specific platforms, it’s hard to do that.

> But if you need to really leverage the specific platforms, it’s hard to do that.

Not my experience. I have a production app for web, ios, and android, with desktop platforms coming.

You can swap out anything per platform and write any extension for any native functionality you don't have, but the std and community extensions are plentiful.

RN sucks for "web pages", great for apps. In fact sometimes I embed web pages inside my RN apps. (surveys, etc.)

I haven't heard a single good argument of why it doesn't work. If you were going to write a native app you can write a native extension and share the common parts in JS.

RN is not Cordova, it's not a black box, it's very flexible and extensible.

-- @Jcampuzano2 because of post limit --

Earlier yes there's some fickleness with the toolchain, I don't really have issues now, it's fine unless you're on bleeding edge versions or old versions. Performance issues usually relate to the JS bridge, JSI will alleviate that, most devs won't experience an issue. I don't know why others struggle with RN, it works well for me. Flutter is a no go because it emulates native, it's not true native. You can feel the difference on iOS and the web part sucks so hard.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#42

Post by systemvoltage »

romero-jk wrote: post #36
systemvoltage wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Vue because I come from a bygone era of HTML + sprinkling jQuery as needed. 99% of the websites don't need a full blown JS frontend but everyone is doing it, I must be wrong.

You can "sprinkle" react too

Not as well as Vue.

Vue is just straight forward exactly like jQuery: https://www.smashingmagazine.com/2018/02/jquery-vue-javascri...

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#43

Post by friedman23 »

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #39

Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for it which is IMO the completely wrong approach for the dream of the serverless app. You got to own the full stack including software. I can easily see Vercel becoming the pretty much only go-to in this space just from the developer trust they have created with Ne…

Vercel is built on cloudflare workers meaning vercel winning means cloudflare wins. Also I think building out the datacenters across the globe is a much harder problem than building out a framework.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#44

Post by gavinray »

systemvoltage wrote: post #38
dexwiz wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you work with a designer? I’m convinced most of the push for JS apps as pages is mostly perpetuated by designers who don’t know how the DOM works and feel the need to redesign the wheel on every project. I work within a company that provides a design system and a platform of hundreds of generic component, but individual designers still always want to push their particular vision. I think if most designers took exi…

No, we don't have a design team, we're too small for that. Just that our backend is already built using Django many many years ago. If I need to add some interactivity, I use jQuery currently. Looked into Vue and it allows us to keep everything as is in the backend and use it like jQuery. I shudder everytime I need to install npm, webpack, gulp, etc..all the JS tools feel super flaky, unnecessary and does not inspire…

  > "I shudder everytime I need to install npm, webpack, gulp, etc..all the JS tools feel super flaky, unnecessary and does not inspire confidence in the tooling. That's my take anyways."
For context, I started doing web dev back in ES5 JS, jQuery, Angular.js (1), and server-side templated HTML views days.

I write in a lot of other languages as well, and I would hear people say this and not get it. I thought to myself:

"It's not THAT bad. I think the experience is fine."

Then I wrote an app recently on the JVM. Sweet jesus the JS/Node ecosystem is a nightmare + house of cards.

The JVM and CLR (.NET) have their stuff together. I need like ~10 dependency libraries to do a large project, and often times they are over a decade old.

The tooling is on another level.

I don't have PROBLEMS writing TS apps, and the experience is good. But some of them have a dependency tree that span thousands of packages, and I've come back 2-3 years later to try to run a project and had some downstream dep break, and then updating fails, and then...

I know it's somewhat of a meme, but this is unironically why I find Deno interesting. (Disclaimer: Haven't shipped anything with it)

Especially since with the most recent release, they have an option to emit Node-compatible JS bundles from Deno code.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#45

Post by hamilton »

dexwiz wrote: post #25
systemvoltage wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Vue because I come from a bygone era of HTML + sprinkling jQuery as needed. 99% of the websites don't need a full blown JS frontend but everyone is doing it, I must be wrong.

Do you work with a designer? I’m convinced most of the push for JS apps as pages is mostly perpetuated by designers who don’t know how the DOM works and feel the need to redesign the wheel on every project. I work within a company that provides a design system and a platform of hundreds of generic component, but individual designers still always want to push their particular vision. I think if most designers took exi…

I find that Svelte is the most "jQuery-friendly" of the frameworks. I can easily add a single Svelte component back into other wise static pages without requiring anything other than a simple build tool to output the JS + css. It's really the best of both worlds – sprinkle it in where needed, or go whole-hog.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#46

Post by systemvoltage »

WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #39

Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for it which is IMO the completely wrong approach for the dream of the serverless app. You got to own the full stack including software. I can easily see Vercel becoming the pretty much only go-to in this space just from the developer trust they have created with Ne…

I predict that Cloudflare will acquire Vercel one day.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#47

Post by leerob »

friedman23 wrote: post #43
WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #39

Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for it which is IMO the completely wrong approach for the dream of the serverless app. You got to own the full stack including software. I can easily see Vercel becoming the pretty much only go-to in this space just from the developer trust they have created with Ne…

Vercel is built on cloudflare workers meaning vercel winning means cloudflare wins. Also I think building out the datacenters across the globe is a much harder problem than building out a framework.

Vercel's infrastructure is multi-cloud, primarily using AWS. We're currently using Workers specifically for Edge Functions (https://vercel.com/edge).

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#48

Post by gnrlst »

dceddia wrote: post #3

This seems like a huge positive step forward for Svelte and the community. Big congrats to Rich! I've been excited about Svelte for a while and recently chose to use it as the UI for a cross-platform video editing app ( https://getrecut.com ), with the back end in Rust. I've found it a pleasure to work with -- Svelte Stores and the Context system are especially great for sharing state, and the app feels snappy. Last…

I see your app is MacOS only at the moment. Are you re-writing it in Electron or what? Very curious

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#49

Post by rabaut »

friedman23 wrote: post #43
WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #39

Cloudflare will regret not having a developer go-to framework for their advanced Worker stuff one day. I think they are waiting for someone else to build for it which is IMO the completely wrong approach for the dream of the serverless app. You got to own the full stack including software. I can easily see Vercel becoming the pretty much only go-to in this space just from the developer trust they have created with Ne…

Vercel is built on cloudflare workers meaning vercel winning means cloudflare wins. Also I think building out the datacenters across the globe is a much harder problem than building out a framework.

Do you have a reference for this? Curious to learn more. I thought Vercel was built on AWS.

Re: Rich Harris joins Vercel to work on Svelte full time

#50

Post by The5thElephant »

dexwiz wrote: post #25
systemvoltage wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love Vue because I come from a bygone era of HTML + sprinkling jQuery as needed. 99% of the websites don't need a full blown JS frontend but everyone is doing it, I must be wrong.

Do you work with a designer? I’m convinced most of the push for JS apps as pages is mostly perpetuated by designers who don’t know how the DOM works and feel the need to redesign the wheel on every project. I work within a company that provides a design system and a platform of hundreds of generic component, but individual designers still always want to push their particular vision. I think if most designers took exi…

Product designer and HTML/CSS person here, and in my experience it is the opposite. Designers and front-end focused people wh get a chance to work with Vue love it because it actually respects basic HTML/CSS/JS and doesn't encourage doing everything in JS, unlike React which basically forces your hand. This makes working in Vue (and Svelte) so much more accessible to people who are great at HTML and CSS but not JS as much (and in my experience many React devs are great at JS and terrible at HTML/CSS).

Designers more often know HTML and CSS over JS, so it is unlikely they are the ones pushing for JS solutions. It is the developers who don't know how to implement designs without falling back on JS for everything who are causing this paradigm.

That being said I blame a lot of this on design tooling as well. Figma and Sketch are custom rendering engines that just don't understand HTML and CSS and therefore give no opportunities for designers to learn how the web works. Fortunately a new generation of design tools are coming that are built on HTML/CSS renderers that feel like Figma but actually output usable code for devs to interpret into their projects.

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