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Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

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Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#261

Post by tomp »

tmp_anon_22 wrote: post #8
throwaway23451 wrote: post #5

I’m sure every generation feels like the next is going to turn the world to hell… but what the hell? I find it absolutely bonkers that gifted classes, math, homework and objective performance assessments are suddenly under fire as instruments perpetuating inequality. Does our education system leave much to be desired? Absolutely! Let’s pay teachers more and improve access to quality education for all students, not co…

A decade ago my high school had two buckets: * students in mostly AP classes who were college bound * students in no AP classes who were mostly not college bound, or were at least limited to community colleges and state schools (Which are great choices! But often have lower success rates and career outcomes) For the AP students grades were a joke because all the teachers would happily give out extra credit to any stu…

I was with you until your last statement.

It extremely easy to make it a meritocracy: just impose an externally-graded exam at the end. Then, the students cannot cheat (because it won't be their teachers grading them), and the teachers don't have an incentive to cheat (because high grades with low final exam will reveal their fraud).

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#262

Post by dorchadas »

bedobi wrote: post #166
dls2016 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is full if the “homework doers” who scored well and got nice professional jobs. Hence the downvotes.

Yeah, I'm one of them. And I too use to think it was all me and my aptitude and merit and hard work. Now, it makes me cringe how I could ever think that. With age I've realized how privileged I was, and how many people who really worked far harder than me and still didn't get ahead. To be clear, schools can't fix all the worlds injustices. Life is unfair and realistically we may never be able to fix that. But we can…

> Yeah, I'm one of them. And I too use to think it was all me and my aptitude and merit and hard work. Now, it makes me cringe how I could ever think that. With age I've realized how privileged I was, and how many people who really worked far harder than me and still didn't get ahead.

Same. For me, though, it took going back and becoming a teacher to see how privileged I was. Mom was a teacher, both parents at home and contributed to my education from an early age (like, doing math as soon as I could talk "How many people are in the car? What if your grandparents were here? Your uncle? What if we took the grandparents away?", etc), etc. My friend group was all in the same situation. Two parents at home, etc. It wasn't until I came back to the school that I realized how insulated I had been and how it wasn't me that was the reason I did so well (Valedictorian), but the support I had behind me that enabled me to do it.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#263

Post by mrjangles »

bedobi wrote: post #114
throwaway23451 wrote: post #5

I’m sure every generation feels like the next is going to turn the world to hell… but what the hell? I find it absolutely bonkers that gifted classes, math, homework and objective performance assessments are suddenly under fire as instruments perpetuating inequality. Does our education system leave much to be desired? Absolutely! Let’s pay teachers more and improve access to quality education for all students, not co…

What you and people like you say it superficially true ("just grade on objective performance!") ...but also completely disingenuous. Student X is an only child, has educated and well paid parents who instill work ethic and have the means, time and ability to commit to helping X get the best grades, including hiring tutors for things they can't or don't have time to teach. X lives in a safe, affluent area and associat…

The purpose of school is train children to function in the real world. I don't understand how you can see a child from a disadvantaged background and say "let's help them by teaching them less"?

If you wanted to help kids from a disadvantaged background, probably the best way would be to make it harder for them to get good grades. Make them work twice as hard as the other kids for the same grade, that will really make up for their background and place them in the lead.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#264

Post by dorchadas »

alanfranz wrote: post #217
hintymad wrote: post #190

Some people seem not get it: dropping homework or objective assessment will not help under-privileged students but hurt them. Homework and object assessment are not used to oppress people (what kind of sick mind would think of that?). They are used to give students timely feedback on what they need to improve upon. Just reading books and listening to lectures will help students learn probably 20% or less, and it is h…

I think that the point is not about lowering standards; it's about preventing unrelated variables to enter the equation. Examples: - A lot of redundant homework is assigned, quantity over quality. Some students with external duties (e.g. family, work) are just unable to deliver all the homework, and thus get lower grades, even though less homework would be enough to demonstrate ability in a topic; - Deadlines are set…

And to not penalize students (.i. homework grades) if they have to work to help support their family, or have so many other trauma issues. GP here really seems to have an idealized version of how school works, ignoring all facts that actually influence learning and stuff (.i. socioeconomic ones). Homework just compounds those problems, and I'd also say there's no such thing as "objective assessments" as well.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#265

Post by dorchadas »

DeathArrow wrote: post #202

A country develops its future by learning. Denying its future by degrading education is criminal. As with everything in life, there are people good at one thing and people who are not. Trying to level everything to the lowest level is idiotic. Sane countries do promote excellence while trying to help the rest stay at a decent level. A country needs both scientists and manual workers. I want both my doctor and the guy…

This isn't 'degrading education'. It's recognizing that education as we currently have it is biased towards those who have strong socioeconomic situations and stable backgrounds at home.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#266

Post by dorchadas »

DeathArrow wrote: post #233
bambataa wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most limiting factors as I see them are first and foremost a lack of love and care from one's parents, and second a wealth deficit. I have numerous friends who are teachers and they all consistently say that the biggest problem is poor parenting. Primarily disengaged parents or parents who don’t value education. Of course this is the elephant in the room because no politician is going to blame parents. It seems…

>I have numerous friends who are teachers and they all consistently say that the biggest problem is poor parenting. Primarily disengaged parents or parents who don’t value education. But that should be the role of public schools. Teach children even if their parents don't care and don't challenge them to learn.

> Teach children even if their parents don't care and don't challenge them to learn.

I saw the kids I taught five hours a week. Their families see them much more (hopefully, though often not because mom's single and working two/three jobs to keep Alice and her younger brother fed and clothed). Who do you think is going to win the influence battle? And, really, when Alice has to go work to help support the family, how much do you think she really cares about homework or school? I'd go so far as to wager that most educational problems in the State stem from socioeconomic ones.

School cannot overcome parents at home, sadly.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#267

Post by inglor_cz »

dorchadas wrote: post #255
inglor_cz wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Public schools work. You can’t deny that." That is like saying that the Space Shuttle worked. It was certainly able to reach the orbit, but the loss of life was politicaly unpalatable, the technology was much more expensive to build and operate than promised and the supply chain was one huge boondoggle covering the entire USA so that every Senator would be happy. At the end of the day, more efficient rockets like Fa…

> Back to public schools. If I look at the international comparisons, American public education burns through a lot of money for mediocre results. This is your money; you should be more critical. Why isn't there any Silicon Valley for education? Because, the fundamental issue with education isn't the quality of teachers. It's the home lives of the students. That's why there's such a big disparity in public education…

Then I am pessimistic if this can be fixed at all.

For example, an absent father tends to put a lot of stress on households, which can only to a limited extent be alleviated by extra money. I know, I grew up without father.

But no one can really provide new fathers to kids from fatherless families and the culture that frowned upon guys leaving their kids is long dead.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#268

Post by tomp »

bedobi wrote: post #114
throwaway23451 wrote: post #5

I’m sure every generation feels like the next is going to turn the world to hell… but what the hell? I find it absolutely bonkers that gifted classes, math, homework and objective performance assessments are suddenly under fire as instruments perpetuating inequality. Does our education system leave much to be desired? Absolutely! Let’s pay teachers more and improve access to quality education for all students, not co…

What you and people like you say it superficially true ("just grade on objective performance!") ...but also completely disingenuous. Student X is an only child, has educated and well paid parents who instill work ethic and have the means, time and ability to commit to helping X get the best grades, including hiring tutors for things they can't or don't have time to teach. X lives in a safe, affluent area and associat…

Grades are good for 2 reasons.

1. Y is worse than X. If you give both of them a math task ("how should I launch this rocket so that it lands safely"), then X is more likely to get it right. The reason why is irrelevant; results are relevant.

2. In contrast to what people like you usually think, performance and context are two different variables. If you measure performance objectively, that gives you a chance to influence context and see which interventions make sense! Maybe giving poor kids' families money doesn't help as much as sending the kids to boarding schools, or enrolling them in extracurricular activities. How could you know? By measuring it! Bottom line, objective measurements are THE BEST way of achieving positive social change (assuming it's your goal... it is mine).

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#269

Post by dorchadas »

cbozeman wrote: post #244
DeathArrow wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I have numerous friends who are teachers and they all consistently say that the biggest problem is poor parenting. Primarily disengaged parents or parents who don’t value education. But that should be the role of public schools. Teach children even if their parents don't care and don't challenge them to learn.

> But that should be the role of public schools. Negative Ghost Rider. The state should never try to replace parenting. If Western society no longer values parenting and sacrifice and suffering for it's children, maybe it is better for some other subgroup of humanity to overtake us.

Is it that we don't value it, or that parents don't have time to actively parent? Or aren't around due to other socioeconomic issues? I taught at a rural school in the States. Less than a quarter of our students lived with both parents at home. And less than 10% lived with families who made enough to keep them off the 'free and reduced lunch program' (thankfully our school gives everyone free breakfast and lunch, and sends food home on the weekends with many). Maybe the issue is these parents would love to parent, but can't because they have to slave away working multiple jobs to just try to make ends meet?

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#270

Post by ngc248 »

throw9000 wrote: post #62
tmp_anon_22 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A decade ago my high school had two buckets: * students in mostly AP classes who were college bound * students in no AP classes who were mostly not college bound, or were at least limited to community colleges and state schools (Which are great choices! But often have lower success rates and career outcomes) For the AP students grades were a joke because all the teachers would happily give out extra credit to any stu…

I knew so many valedictorians that flunked out at the state school I went to (University of Missouri - Rolla). High school is a garbage indicator for how well you'll do in life or further education.

Raw talent will only get you some distance, its the people who know how to bend down and work hard who will go the extra mile.
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