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Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

latimes.com

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Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#231

Post by tzs »

laserbeam wrote: post #101

I was really hoping this is a decent article about what some teacher or school did about the problem. It starts like that but then it goes kablookie... So, a certain Joshua Moreno is fed up with the system and did something about that, 2 paragraphs. GREAT. Then the rest of the entire article is about institutionalized racism and how the current system fails us. At no point do we get a good example about what mr Moren…

> There's no concrete idea in it that we could debate here on HN

Sure there is. The problem described in the first few paragraphs is essentially due to a Goodhart's Law situation and the imposition of deadlines that are not actually related to what the class is trying to accomplish.

These are both things that are ripe for HN debate (and have been debated in other contexts here).

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#232

Post by GoblinSlayer »

thablackbull wrote: post #138
Lhiw wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to agree there is institutional racism in schools to think this is garbage writing? Worried you'll get called a racist for suggesting an anti racist is wrong? Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Removing homework and grading? Because "racism"? You shouldn't be penalizing well off people (white or not) with worse schooling because some lower class students (black or not) dont have enough…

> Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Are you really that self centered that you think that people around the globe care.

Stupid people learn from their own mistakes, smart people learn from other people's mistakes.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#233

Post by DeathArrow »

bambataa wrote: post #227
wwilim wrote: post #175

A lot of the heated debate here is about racism. I'm not from the US, but in my experience people get terribly inequal opportunities in education even in environments where everyone has the same ethnic background. The most limiting factors as I see them are first and foremost a lack of love and care from one's parents, and second a wealth deficit. Many commenters are also furious about alleged "lowering the bar". Rem…

> The most limiting factors as I see them are first and foremost a lack of love and care from one's parents, and second a wealth deficit. I have numerous friends who are teachers and they all consistently say that the biggest problem is poor parenting. Primarily disengaged parents or parents who don’t value education. Of course this is the elephant in the room because no politician is going to blame parents. It seems…

>I have numerous friends who are teachers and they all consistently say that the biggest problem is poor parenting. Primarily disengaged parents or parents who don’t value education.

But that should be the role of public schools. Teach children even if their parents don't care and don't challenge them to learn.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#234

Post by DeathArrow »

baron816 wrote: post #125

Would it be that complicated to just skip grades and only advanced students once they’ve mastered a subject? Why do we say “60% correct? That’s good enough you can start learning more complicated stuff”? Let’s just allow students to keep working on something until they’ve demonstrated mastery, and allow them to move at their own pace.

>Let’s just allow students to keep working on something until they’ve demonstrated mastery, and allow them to move at their own pace.

By doing that, some will do 4 years in 2 and others will do 4 years in 10 or never.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#235

Post by DeathArrow »

SavantIdiot wrote: post #93

Glad to see school systems addressing the systemic inequities that have become visible due to the pandemic. There are other ways to grade. The point system has always been lazy, about as effective at predicting competence and success as standardized testing. What really predicts success is how rich your parents are. Sure there are rich fuckups, but not having to take care of parents or younger siblings while living o…

I'm not from US. I'm not from a wealthy family. I even wasn't amongst the top students in University or high school. And yet I've learned enough to be good at programming/CS, I have a decent job and I can take a break to watch you embarass yourself on HN.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#236

Post by DeathArrow »

pcmoney wrote: post #143
SavantIdiot wrote: post #93

Glad to see school systems addressing the systemic inequities that have become visible due to the pandemic. There are other ways to grade. The point system has always been lazy, about as effective at predicting competence and success as standardized testing. What really predicts success is how rich your parents are. Sure there are rich fuckups, but not having to take care of parents or younger siblings while living o…

No it is fear I’ll be on the operating table with a surgeon who has been trained to think that if he botches something there is a do over.

That sounds selfish.

Isn't it fair that bad surgeons have their chances to butcher you? They are humans, too, they have feelings, they have emotions and they might have endured hardships in their childhood.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#237

Post by DeathArrow »

visarga wrote: post #185
SavantIdiot wrote: post #93

Glad to see school systems addressing the systemic inequities that have become visible due to the pandemic. There are other ways to grade. The point system has always been lazy, about as effective at predicting competence and success as standardized testing. What really predicts success is how rich your parents are. Sure there are rich fuckups, but not having to take care of parents or younger siblings while living o…

> What really predicts success is how rich your parents are. I personally know people who had poor parents and succeeded by education and hard work, don't dismiss what you don't know. > The hate directed at this article is endemic of fear. Absolute fear that someone will get more than you. No, it's your comment that's hateful. You think little of the individual, only the family and identity groups matter. That's why…

>I personally know people who had poor parents and succeeded by education and hard work, don't dismiss what you don't know.

I am an example of that. But speaking of parents, they cared about my education and pushed me to learn.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#238

Post by deepsun »

FpUser wrote: post #117
deepsun wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, before governments got into education, most people were happy living illiterate.

>"people were happy living illiterate" And you of course have all encompassing stats to prove that they were happy. Government education allowed people with limited financial means to give a chance to their kids at least. Problem is not the government education. Problem is that thanks to political games the priorities got completely fucked up. The goal should be to actually educate people not to make sure that everyo…

I meant that people often resisted literacy, or at least didn't see any use of it.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#239

Post by cbozeman »

dls2016 wrote: post #140
bedobi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you and people like you say it superficially true ("just grade on objective performance!") ...but also completely disingenuous. Student X is an only child, has educated and well paid parents who instill work ethic and have the means, time and ability to commit to helping X get the best grades, including hiring tutors for things they can't or don't have time to teach. X lives in a safe, affluent area and associat…

HN is full if the “homework doers” who scored well and got nice professional jobs. Hence the downvotes.

Yeah, because in life you have to put in the work.

Using math as an example, you can't master it without a lot of practice, and that practice is homework. Albert Einstein wrote that he was practicing mathematics often and at length from an early age.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#240

Post by cbozeman »

jiscariot wrote: post #74
dls2016 wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of what you're saying seems reasonable... but then I see a statistic like this: "Black Americans receive about 7 percent of the doctoral degrees awarded each year across all disciplines, but they have received just 1 percent of those granted over the last decade in mathematics." https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/18/us/edray-goins-black-math... And this is the current production! You don't want to see the statistic…

There is a cult around intelligence we really need move beyond, given that it is predominately an inherited trait, speaking no more or less to any individuals self-worth. Proportional representation of various (tribal, ethnic, gender, religious, racial) groups would actually be the anomaly in nature, not what the parent is identifying as an issue. It is always math and but never nursing. That alone may shed a little…

"It is always math" because math is the language of the 21st century. People who have mastery of mathematics will be as influential as the people who had mastery of language in the 20th century.

> There is a cult around intelligence we really need move beyond, given that it is predominately an inherited trait

Just because it's inherited doesn't mean we need to move beyond it. It's the most important predictor of life outcome and should be screened for and nurtured from the moment we find above-average individuals, because they are rare. What we need "move beyond" is allowing people with resources to advantage to their thoroughly average children.

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