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Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

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Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#151

Post by Burnafter186 »

throwaway23451 wrote: post #5

I’m sure every generation feels like the next is going to turn the world to hell… but what the hell? I find it absolutely bonkers that gifted classes, math, homework and objective performance assessments are suddenly under fire as instruments perpetuating inequality. Does our education system leave much to be desired? Absolutely! Let’s pay teachers more and improve access to quality education for all students, not co…

>objective performance assessments

Can you be so sure?

What are you really measuring come exam time? It's not an objective measure, that much is sure. Someone who is loaded with work, family, and various other considerations isn't given a due handicap, and even in the event that there is a curve in place, it's still not measuring much. We'd do better to recognize that the measure of man is almost always going to result in spurious data. A D student isn't necessarily dumb, but disinterested, or distracted, perhaps disenfranchised or something along those lines. And grading itself really isn't revelatory, it's easy to game. I just did it, open book quiz with a digital copy, I ctrl-F'd through it and found the answers with ease, I didn't read much of anything, but I did get a perfect score. What does it say, then? That a student can exploit Campbell's law, and the teacher can do the same, so the district can look good and continue receiving grants. It has nothing to do with intelligence, it has to do with sculpting the metrics to say that someone is intelligent. Grading wasn't always the case, mind you, it was an invention of the late 1700's - and frankly a bad one. But institutional inertia carried it to the present.

What I assure you won't result from dismantling the systematic psuedo-objective measurement of humans is "cognitively handicapped" generations.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#152

Post by Lhiw »

thablackbull wrote: post #138
Lhiw wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to agree there is institutional racism in schools to think this is garbage writing? Worried you'll get called a racist for suggesting an anti racist is wrong? Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Removing homework and grading? Because "racism"? You shouldn't be penalizing well off people (white or not) with worse schooling because some lower class students (black or not) dont have enough…

> Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Are you really that self centered that you think that people around the globe care.

They don't have to care to laugh at us for dumbing down our kids.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#153

Post by Lhiw »

wwilim wrote: post #150
Lhiw wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to agree there is institutional racism in schools to think this is garbage writing? Worried you'll get called a racist for suggesting an anti racist is wrong? Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Removing homework and grading? Because "racism"? You shouldn't be penalizing well off people (white or not) with worse schooling because some lower class students (black or not) dont have enough…

How is this penalizing well-off students? By making it harder to automatically get ahead in education just because your poor classmates are sliding off the slippery slope of a negative feedback loop? I wouldn't call it penalizing.

They're dropping the homework requirement. This is a huge amount of extra study time to absorb and practice what you've learned throughout the day.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#154

Post by CryptoPunk »

kqr wrote: post #124
lmm wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dealing with stress/anxiety/deadlines is a vital life skill. At some point people have to face failures and consequences (even if the failure was "not their fault"!) and learn to handle them; if they don't do it in school they'll be doing it for the first time in college, or in the workplace, or with governmental requirements.

Sure, but are you really arguing that getting bad grades is a good way to learn how to deal with anxiety? Do you have evidence for that statement?

The grading holds you accountable, and places pressure to do better.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#155

Post by sieabahlpark »

thablackbull wrote: post #138
Lhiw wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to agree there is institutional racism in schools to think this is garbage writing? Worried you'll get called a racist for suggesting an anti racist is wrong? Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Removing homework and grading? Because "racism"? You shouldn't be penalizing well off people (white or not) with worse schooling because some lower class students (black or not) dont have enough…

> Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Are you really that self centered that you think that people around the globe care.

You're asking whether China cares that the greatest potential threat to their very existence is dumbing down their populace?

Did you go through this very system recently?

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#156

Post by bedobi »

yuliyp wrote: post #135
bedobi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you and people like you say it superficially true ("just grade on objective performance!") ...but also completely disingenuous. Student X is an only child, has educated and well paid parents who instill work ethic and have the means, time and ability to commit to helping X get the best grades, including hiring tutors for things they can't or don't have time to teach. X lives in a safe, affluent area and associat…

> Granted, these are obviously exaggerated and hypothetical stereotypes, which I don't really want to contribute to perpetuating, but they illustrate a point. You don't exactly have to be some kind of bleeding heart social justice activist to see how unfair it is to Z to be "objectively graded" as lacking "performance" when compared to X. I don't think that it follows from this that it's unfair for Y/Z to have a lowe…

> I don't think that it follows from this that it's unfair for Y/Z to have a lower grade

The unfairness is pretty obvious, if you don't see it I don't know what to tell you.

> That doesn't mean they're a worse person / student > How you interpret that later on is a different question

This is pointless semantics - we all know exactly how it will be interpreted and what it will mean for Y's prospects to have the worse grades.

> Trying to change the scale leads to the measurement being meaningless

This is literally the exact point I preemptively addressed at the end of my reply.

Your analogy with athletes is nonsensical. We're not talking about comparing the best of the best who are consensually opting into competing against each other. We're talking about disadvantaged people who are subjected to (whether they want to be in it or not) an unjust "grading" system that only highlights and perpetuates their "underperformance"... But sure, we can use your analogy:

Take the top 10 100m dash competitors,

put some of them in all inclusive athletic villages with access to world class facilities, coaches, nutrition etc and let them focus all their time and energy on training

put others in a low income country shantytown with no access to any facilities, coaches, with poor nutrition and no time or energy to train because they have to engage in subsistence agriculture to just survive

then, let them race! It's fair because tHe tiMeKeEpiNg is oBjEcTiVe

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#157

Post by theteapot »

thablackbull wrote: post #138
Lhiw wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you have to agree there is institutional racism in schools to think this is garbage writing? Worried you'll get called a racist for suggesting an anti racist is wrong? Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Removing homework and grading? Because "racism"? You shouldn't be penalizing well off people (white or not) with worse schooling because some lower class students (black or not) dont have enough…

> Actually on topic though, Asia is laughing at us. Are you really that self centered that you think that people around the globe care.

Was that a question? I live in Asia, America is a constant and dependable source of laughs. We care. Keep bringing the laughs please.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#158

Post by mlyle »

WalterBright wrote: post #120

> give students a five-day grace period to turn in work I don't see how that changes anything. It just means the homework deadline is 5 days later. > eliminate zeroes in grade books Meaning if one does well on the first assignment, the rest of the semester can be ignored. A savvy student, once they achieved an A, will be motivated to not turn in any more assignments or tests. > and re-do tests Once you know what is o…

> > eliminate zeroes in grade books

> Meaning if one does well on the first assignment, the rest of the semester can be ignored. A savvy student, once they achieved an A, will be motivated to not turn in any more assignments or tests.

Usually this is not by marking assignments "not required" or changing the denominator. Instead, many educators are giving a 50% for a missing assignments: not a zero, but a far less insurmountable thing to overcome.

If I had a problem with a student with systemically missing work, I'd give them 2/3rds credit on any part of homework they'd shown mastery on by some other means (test, class activities, other assignments). So they'd likely get more than 33 and less than 67.

> Once you know what is on the test, it isn't really a test anymore.

If you know the specific problems, sure. I don't recommend giving the same student the same test (well, I have been known to allow students to rework a problem for partial credit).

But I don't seek to ever give students a test where what's on the test is a surprise/some kind of secret.

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#159

Post by wwilim »

throwaway23451 wrote: post #5

I’m sure every generation feels like the next is going to turn the world to hell… but what the hell? I find it absolutely bonkers that gifted classes, math, homework and objective performance assessments are suddenly under fire as instruments perpetuating inequality. Does our education system leave much to be desired? Absolutely! Let’s pay teachers more and improve access to quality education for all students, not co…

Just because a learning environment is lighter on the pressure than usual does not mean it provides you with less knowledge. Besides, you're making it sound like the ultimate goal of academic success is to get a better grade than your colleagues, which it is not - it's learning.

You're right in the sense that moving away from grades might make it harder for universities to pick out the best students among applicants, but again, defime "best" - is the best student the one with the most knowledge, or the one who was able to systematically turn in homework just good enough to get an A-?

Re: Faced with soaring Ds and Fs, schools are ditching the old way of grading

#160

Post by adgjlsfhk1 »

secondaryacct wrote: post #89
uejfiweun wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love these ideas and I agree with them for the most part. But I am pessimistic about US society's capacity to make such far reaching changes to a system that has largely stayed the same for almost 100 years. There are just too many forces pulling these government officials too many ways - the best we will get is some compromise that satisfies nobody. That's why I say we should move to a more free-market based solut…

I went to a private school in France, a small one in a smallish town, and I dont really understand why we have public schools. The incentive to succeed starts at parents having to pay, ending with the students being quite aggressively challenged to actually deliver on exams. It may not be fit for everyone, but now that I work in an investment bank in Hong Kong, I dont feel like I m being abused by deadlines, financia…

What happens if the parents can't afford to pay?
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