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Reflections on E-Bikes

ebikes.neighbor-ryan.org

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Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#31

Post by russellbeattie »

The thing about ebikes is they sit in a speed niche that hasn't really been seen before, and it's going to cause lots of problems.

Before ebikes, you either rode a bicycle, or moved up to a motorscooter or motorcycle, which are much more regulated. The problem is, ebikes are stealth motorscooters. They go really, really fast, for sustained periods of time, and yet are as thin and quiet as a pedal bike.

I just started riding motorcycles and you are told that you should ride as if you are invisible, and it's totally true. Ebikes, however, are even worse. You're still going 30, 40 or more and yet, you're even less visible to traffic and less protected should something go wrong. This is going to be a huge issue as these things get more popular. Which they will be.

My son and I are getting really into ebikes and e-dirtbikes and e-motorcycles. We're building our third right now [1]. They really are a totally new and interesting area which, like how Tesla changed perceptions of electric cars, ebikes are going to do the same with two wheeled vehicles. For those of us in temperate areas like California, it might represent a real fundamental shift in how we all commute. Laws are going to need to be changed quickly.

For those of you interested, definitely start looking at all the activity around ebikes and e-motorbikes online [2]. There's a quickly growing community of enthusiasts who are building their own bikes from scratch, modding/upgrading their off-the-shelf bikes, converting old dirtbikes and more.

It really feels like we're at a tipping point. Even HN has had several articles about it in as many days, even though I think most of the articles and conversation really missed the point: Ebikes are a 10x innovation and we should really be thinking of what that will mean.

1. https://www.instagram.com/p/CV9vQWcLGIh/

2. https://www.instagram.com/explore/tags/ebikes/

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#32

Post by serf »

londons_explore wrote: post #22
tcoff91 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Car insurance, gas, maintenance, oil changes, tires, etc… Total cost of ownership of a car is really high

I think this must be a US phenomenon. My used car in the UK costs me about $600/year plus $0.14/mile (including fuel, taxes, inspections, maintenance, depreciation, parking, insurance). And that's in a country with ~$0.09/mile in fuel taxes. Granted this is not the average cost of car ownership but a car chosen for low total ownership cost.

>I think this must be a US phenomenon.

>a car chosen for low total ownership cost.

I own and drive a car that I bought with the intention of owning and maintaining cheaply, too. I am fairly anal about maintenance, so the costs associated with that are actually inflated from what they could be.

I live in Southern California, apparently a very expensive place to be.

I own a reliable used car that I bought for fairly cheap (sub 5000usd).

I pay about 82 dollars a year for registration, and 85 dollars a month (with a good DMV history) for insurance.

I spend around 1200 dollars on maintenance a year generally, but it has been as low as 500 a year.

So, 2400-2900 a year after the initial purchase. It's more expensive than some places -- but not ourageous.

Licensing is a lot cheaper than Japan, at least.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#33

Post by jzoch »

londons_explore wrote: post #16
stephc_int13 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is clearly a pain point in need of an innovative solution, might be a sizeable market.

iPhones had a similar theft problem till they implemented decent anti-theft DRM. Now it's rare to see iPhones stolen. Ebikes could do the same. It would be a shame for the 'hacker' crowd, but with locked down firmware and all parts cryptographically linked by serial number, there would be no valuable parts to strip from a stolen bike.

iphone theft is still incredibly routine. The anti-theft features are not a sufficient deterrent

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#34

Post by londons_explore »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #25
londons_explore wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iPhones had a similar theft problem till they implemented decent anti-theft DRM. Now it's rare to see iPhones stolen. Ebikes could do the same. It would be a shame for the 'hacker' crowd, but with locked down firmware and all parts cryptographically linked by serial number, there would be no valuable parts to strip from a stolen bike.

What is anti theft drm?

The ability to click "I lost my iPhone" and be confident that no thief can just erase the phone and use it himself.

It normally involves ensuring the device has secure boot, non-rollbackable firmware, tamper-resistant storage for a 'when I last talked to my server' timestamp, and network connectivity to be able to talk to a server to get the lock/unlock status.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#35

Post by FemmeAndroid »

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #28

> Previously, you had to be a serious cyclist to access this speed (and corresponding ability to simply exist on car-dominated roads), but now almost everyone can. Wow, interesting that they frame this as a positive. I'm a general advocate for e-bikes but this has been the absolute biggest drawback I've noticed with them: e-bike riders suddenly get all of the speed of a very fit cyclist but absolutely none of the roa…

Yeah. I agree with this. I tend to be very law abiding. And I think e-bikes enable me to be more willing to come to complete stops, and generally follow traffic laws than most bike riders I know.

But I’d definitely acknowledge that a lot of e-bike riders seem to be engaging in risky behavior, quite possibly without realizing the risk.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#36

Post by fy20 »

tcoff91 wrote: post #12
ezfe wrote: post #6

It is not accurate to use $40,000 as the amount of money needed to get a car. A good new car can be purchased for half that, not to mention the used car market.

Car insurance, gas, maintenance, oil changes, tires, etc… Total cost of ownership of a car is really high

I bought a used car 6 years ago, and since then I've spent €2,200 on maintenance - that includes oil and tire changes. I'm quite strict on following the manufacturers guidelines, so if you were a bit more laissez-faire or did more work yourself it would be cheaper.

Insurance costs €150/year. I drive around 10,000km per year, which at today's prices (€1.50 per litre) fuel costs €900/year.

I paid €10,000 to buy the car and today the same aged cars will sell for around €6,000. That gives a total cost of ownership (excluding fuel) of €1,100/year or €2,000/year including fuel.

For my family's usage that works out cheaper than public transport + renting a car for longer trips.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#37

Post by hans-moleman »

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #28

> Previously, you had to be a serious cyclist to access this speed (and corresponding ability to simply exist on car-dominated roads), but now almost everyone can. Wow, interesting that they frame this as a positive. I'm a general advocate for e-bikes but this has been the absolute biggest drawback I've noticed with them: e-bike riders suddenly get all of the speed of a very fit cyclist but absolutely none of the roa…

You would rather this type of person drive a 2 ton vehicle? “Well people are going to have poor judgement” isn’t really a good argument against anything.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#38

Post by mdoms »

chrisfosterelli wrote: post #28

> Previously, you had to be a serious cyclist to access this speed (and corresponding ability to simply exist on car-dominated roads), but now almost everyone can. Wow, interesting that they frame this as a positive. I'm a general advocate for e-bikes but this has been the absolute biggest drawback I've noticed with them: e-bike riders suddenly get all of the speed of a very fit cyclist but absolutely none of the roa…

So you think that you can calculate it as dangerous but they can't? It seems to me like the dangers of riding a bicycle fast on the road is really obvious and the e-bike riders are calculating the risk just as experienced riders are. Not everyone has your risk appetite.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#39

Post by quickthrower2 »

In Sydney it’s just too treacherous to cycle, and the risk of injury is too high to me to make it worth it.

In addition there are places where bikes are massively inconvenienced vs cars.

The classic example is the (I’d guess) 6 story flight of stairs to walk your bike up to use the harbour bridge. There are other examples like this, around bridges.

These add a lot of time and sweat to a commute making it more convenient to drive or eat a train or bus.

Cycling for pleasure, if you drive to the right places, is still possible.

Re: Reflections on E-Bikes

#40

Post by aeternum »

This sounds great in theory, but I don't find it convincing.

Motorcyclists say the same thing about speed being a benefit and maybe it is in some cases, but if you look at the stats, the faster the bike, the more likely you will die. Speeding is a factor in 32% of fatalities.

I'd be surprised if it's significantly different on an e-bike.

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