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Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

reuters.com

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Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#111

Post by pengaru »

323 wrote: post #100

Tuvalu is just 26 sq km. How many bulk carriers filled with dirt you need to raise that by a few meters?

I suspect they need something more like some fresh volcanic flows to shore up their land in a way the relentless, rising seas won't quickly wash away.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#112

Post by soperj »

int0x2e wrote: post #110
323 wrote: post #100

Tuvalu is just 26 sq km. How many bulk carriers filled with dirt you need to raise that by a few meters?

That could work for Tuvalu, but I hope you realize that if everyone just used that solution to address the sea-level rise due to global warming, you'd end up greatly accelerating both global warming and sea level rise...

majority of coral atolls have actually been growing in the last 50 years, not shrinking.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#113

Post by NineStarPoint »

coredog64 wrote: post #9
toomuchtodo wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These nations will need to make arrangements to migrate to welcoming host nations, that will allow for local governance similar to how tribal lands work in the US. Wealth could be preserved by seeking restitution from nations according to lifetime emissions (which has led to sea level rise), and creating a trust to manage and distribute the returns from those funds invested to citizens where ever they are. Once subme…

Assuming we haven’t also destroyed fishing stocks, countries like Tuvalu and Kiribati have huge value from the fishing rights within their EEZ.

Generally speaking, an EEZ is defined as a certain amount of miles from the shoreline of a country. The big question here is the question of: if you no longer have a shoreline, do you get to keep the EEZ of where your shoreline used to be?

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#114

Post by selimthegrim »

ocschwar wrote: post #88
bin_bash wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

call me cynical, but would any country be willing to give up its land like that? Tribal lands only exist to give back a small fraction of stolen lands back. Would any country give land to another country just for goodwill?

The most likely resolution would be a land purchase in (for example) Fiji along with a grant of autonomous power on that land, in exchange for a fishing lease in Tuvaluan waters. Fiji gets a share of Tuvaluan fishing grounds, and the Tuvaluans get a place to live AND some protection for their territorial waters by a nation that is still landed.

Why would Fiji treat them any differently than the Indians?

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#115

Post by BitwiseFool »

ocschwar wrote: post #18
AutumnCurtain wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Between wealthy doomsday preppers and Pacific climate refugees, New Zealand is dealing with the immigrant trends of 2050 today!

Well, a nation with a thriving Polynesian culture is probably the best place to collect atoll refugees.

Perhaps, perhaps not. In Hawaii there is actually a lot of tension between the Kanaka Maoli (Native Hawaiians), the Marshallese, and Micronesians. I am not keen as to exactly why this is, but I think it underscores the importance of providing more resources for both the Pacific Islanders already living receiving limited assistance, and the new arrivals. I think the government shouldn't just assume they'll get along because of shared cultural heritage.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#116

Post by mlyle »

323 wrote: post #100

Tuvalu is just 26 sq km. How many bulk carriers filled with dirt you need to raise that by a few meters?

That's 2.6 * 10^8 cubic meters of compacted dirt and rock needed to raise the island by 10m-- which is more than 1500 kg/cubic meter (1.5 tonnes/cubic meter).

The largest bulk carriers manage about 400,000 DWT.

So, about 1000 trips of the largest around... ignoring the logistical and ecological challenges of procuring that much material and using it to raise the island in a durable way.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#117

Post by 323 »

BitwiseFool wrote: post #108
323 wrote: post #100

Tuvalu is just 26 sq km. How many bulk carriers filled with dirt you need to raise that by a few meters?

I'm certain it would be more than Tuvalu could afford, unless they were granted the money by the UN, which seems unlikely. I also can't help but think the dirt would eventually be washed away regardless. The kind of land reclamation places like the Netherlands do isn't applicable on Pacific Low Islands.

China has experience growing islands in the ocean. They are also the biggest polluter right now and they can afford the cost. If Tuvalu allows them to build a naval base in return maybe the US will get involved just to prevent that.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#118

Post by nxpnsv »

323 wrote: post #100

Tuvalu is just 26 sq km. How many bulk carriers filled with dirt you need to raise that by a few meters?

Should be possible to compute. Let's user 3 meters of sand with a density of 1600kg/m^3. So you ned 326100010001600 = 124.8 billion kg. The largest containerships can do something like 200k DWT (2.032*10^8 kg). So just above 614 trips...
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