Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged • Hacker News Board

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#61

Post by jonathankoren » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:52 PM UTC

ocschwar wrote: post #17

rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. They export coconuts and fishing licenses for hard currency, and there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. So if the same institutions that decided to enable the foundation of the republic of Tuvalu decide to protect Tuvualuan territorial waters as a way to give the Tuvaluan diaspora so…

> Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them.

This is true of every state. If no one recognizes your claims, and then acts with impunity against you, you’re not a state.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#62

Post by quacked » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #61

ocschwar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. They export coconuts and fishing licenses for hard currency, and there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. So if the same institutions that decided to enable the foundation of the republic of Tuvalu decide to protect Tuvualuan territorial waters as a way to give the Tuvaluan diaspora so…

> Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. This is true of every state. If no one recognizes your claims, and then acts with impunity against you, you’re not a state.

It is most certainly not true of every state; if no one recognizes your claims, but you can still feed your citizens and defend your borders, you are "a state".

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#63

Post by roywiggins » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:53 PM UTC

bobthechef wrote: post #22

Why not build a system of dikes around the island? What about poldering? Is that feasible here? The island is only 26 square kilometers.

The land area of Fulafuti is 2.4 square kilometers, but the total area of the atoll is 275 square kilometers: it's a ring of islands surrounding a lagoon. The lagoon is 120 feet deep. The atoll is basically the tip-top of a vast underwater mountain that drops away precipitously: there's nothing to build a dike on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Funafuti

https://tuvalu-data.sprep.org/system/files/Rapport_de_leve_C...

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#64

Post by ocschwar » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:54 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #61

ocschwar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. They export coconuts and fishing licenses for hard currency, and there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. So if the same institutions that decided to enable the foundation of the republic of Tuvalu decide to protect Tuvualuan territorial waters as a way to give the Tuvaluan diaspora so…

> Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. This is true of every state. If no one recognizes your claims, and then acts with impunity against you, you’re not a state.

Some states can assert their claims. Tuvalu is not one of them.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#65

Post by asasidh » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

They should look at the metaverse. I am told that is the future.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#66

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

ocschwar wrote: post #17

rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. They export coconuts and fishing licenses for hard currency, and there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. So if the same institutions that decided to enable the foundation of the republic of Tuvalu decide to protect Tuvualuan territorial waters as a way to give the Tuvaluan diaspora so…

> there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean.

You also cannot defend a patch of ocean without some land, at least with current technology. War ships require quite a bit of time in dry dock for fueling, refit, and rearmament. And that's before we consider the subpar fighting capability that crews without shore leave would provide.

No, they'd still need to buy or borrow some land, even if they had the hardware to run a moderate navy.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#67

Post by ashtonkem » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 4:57 PM UTC

jonathankoren wrote: post #61

ocschwar wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. They export coconuts and fishing licenses for hard currency, and there is no way they could muster the money and hardware to defend their patch of the ocean. So if the same institutions that decided to enable the foundation of the republic of Tuvalu decide to protect Tuvualuan territorial waters as a way to give the Tuvaluan diaspora so…

> Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. This is true of every state. If no one recognizes your claims, and then acts with impunity against you, you’re not a state.

Depends on how big of an army you have. Plenty of states get recognition not because other states want to, but because they have sufficient ability to defend their borders.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#68

Post by handrous » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

quacked wrote: post #62

jonathankoren wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tuvalu exists as a state because the international community decided to let them. This is true of every state. If no one recognizes your claims, and then acts with impunity against you, you’re not a state.

It is most certainly not true of every state; if no one recognizes your claims, but you can still feed your citizens and defend your borders, you are "a state".

> and then acts with impunity against you

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#69

Post by ocschwar » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 5:00 PM UTC

pkphilip wrote: post #23

rectang wrote: post #3

If the worst case scenario happens and Tuvalu is submerged, how will the state manage to survive even without territory? Is that in the best interest of its citizens? Can any of the nation's collective wealth be preserved, either in the form of an enduring landless state as proposed, or by in some way transferring that wealth as the citizens emigrate somewhere else? Or is this proposal the futile death throes of a st…

They can become a nation where citizens live on boats (if they are ok with that) or on dwellings that exist over water.. or they can increase the height of their island by bringing soil from elsewhere.. or they can make their own islands.

The engineering challenge involved in making that a safe way to live go beyond anything the Tuvaluans can hope to finance.

Re: Tuvalu looking at legal ways to be a state if it is submerged

#70

Post by mherdeg » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 5:02 PM UTC

asasidh wrote: post #65

They should look at the metaverse. I am told that is the future.

I think this is the premise of 1995 Sci-Fi channel classic CARVER'S GATE -- in a grim future where the planet's ecosystem is ruined and its remaining inhabitants struggle to survive, anybody who can afford spends all their time inside their VR helmets living out escapist fantasies.

The motivating issue in that film is that a bunch of people play video games, a scientist invents a tool that allows the Doom monsters to come back to earth, and a QA engineer has to hunt them down before they destroy the remaining shreds of humanity. That part is of course unrealistic but otherwise the Metaverse narrative plausibly matches this Michael Parée classic.