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The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

theintercept.com

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Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#341

Post by tzs »

jkhdigital wrote: post #289
closeparen wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Almost all investigative work is asking people to share information that they don’t legally have to.

Interviewing a person is not "search and seizure"; the two things are categorically different.

So looking at all your comments so far, it appears that:

1. If Bob is selling data that he legally obtained about Alice and legally can sell, it is a search if the government buys that data from Bob, and

2. If the government interviews Bob and Bob gives them data about Alice, it is not a search.

I'm failing to see the distinction you are making.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#342

Post by jkhdigital »

austincheney wrote: post #340
jkhdigital wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Irrelevant to the 4th amendment. A service's TOS does not absolve the government of its constitutional prohibition against unreasonable search and seizure. Buying data from a 3rd party service is still a search and seizure, much like paying a hitman is still first-degree murder. The question is whether it is reasonable.

Social media is not the third party once you surrender your data to them. You, the user/product, become the third party in any forthcoming transactions. The only legal challenge therein are details related to exposure of bulk PII which remain protected without regard for the fourth amendment by other laws. This has been the case for decades. I remember before the internet publishers selling their users subscription a…

I’m confused. Aren’t we talking about the 4th amendment here? The implied “right to privacy” is only in relation to the government. To me, this means there is a categorical difference between random third parties buying data about you, and the government buying data about you.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#343

Post by rubyist5eva »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #312
Jensson wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just because the electrical signals carrying a private conversation pass through wires that are owned by a third party does not make the conversation public Without data protection laws that data isn't your private data, that data is the company's data. And you are free to do whatever you want with your data, and since the company owns this data the company can sell it to the government, it doesn't matter if you co…

We have laws, though. The Fourth Amendment is a law, and it's reasonable to say that purchasing what is (arguably) the company's data is still tantamount to a search of our "effects". Or maybe it's not, and we need new legislation specifically targeting this. That's where the Supreme Court comes in: their raison d'être is to resolve ambiguities in existing law.

You misunderstand the fourth.

1. The data is not yours. It’s the company’s 2. The government is not “search or seizing” the data, they are purchasing it or a license to it. 3. The company is selling it voluntarily, the government is not compelling it.

The fourth does not apply.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#344

Post by math_and_stuff »

mrobot wrote: post #189

Does anyone know what day Tech Inquiry provided these documents to The Intercept? Seems kinda convenient we get our nice exciting "adversarial" article about this four days /after/ the infrastructure bill passes and we are locked in to have tons of new bank surveillance and like 80,000 new IRS agents...

The article was published Nov. 4, days before the infrastructure bill passed. Not yesterday. You can easily find this in the header of the article.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#345

Post by math_and_stuff »

user3939382 wrote: post #270
literallyaduck wrote: post #165

Don't like it? Organizations like the EFF have been working to stop overreach: https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2021/01/eff-fincen-stop-pushin... You can help financially, and contact each of your representatives and senators and request they act to stop this end run around the constitution.

I used to be a big EFF supporter until I learned they take millions in donations from the same organizations they’re supposed to be watching. Best case scenario it’s a massive conflict of interest, it’s a big problem for me that they find it to be ok.

This is an irresponsible claim if not backed up with a citation.

Further, I happen to monitor corporate funding to nonprofits (including the EFF) and public reporting suggests EFF only received $7500 from Google in 2018 and $25K from Facebook.

Whereas Center for Democracy and Technology, which was founded by the former Executive Director of the EFF in 1994, received $430K and $500K, respectively.

See https://news.bloomberglaw.com/privacy-and-data-security/face...

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#346

Post by user3939382 »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #331
user3939382 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a big EFF supporter until I learned they take millions in donations from the same organizations they’re supposed to be watching. Best case scenario it’s a massive conflict of interest, it’s a big problem for me that they find it to be ok.

That's a mighty big claim. Do you have similar scale supportive references?

Here’s a start but you can dig for more https://news.bloomberglaw.com/tech-and-telecom-law/facebook-...

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#347

Post by user3939382 »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #345
user3939382 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to be a big EFF supporter until I learned they take millions in donations from the same organizations they’re supposed to be watching. Best case scenario it’s a massive conflict of interest, it’s a big problem for me that they find it to be ok.

This is an irresponsible claim if not backed up with a citation. Further, I happen to monitor corporate funding to nonprofits (including the EFF) and public reporting suggests EFF only received $7500 from Google in 2018 and $25K from Facebook. Whereas Center for Democracy and Technology, which was founded by the former Executive Director of the EFF in 1994, received $430K and $500K, respectively. See https://news.blo…

“ Google gave the Electronic Frontier Foundation $75,000 in calendar year 2017, $15,500 in calendar year 2016, and $325,000 in calendar year 2015, according tax forms, annual reports, and interviews with the nonprofit.”

Add up all the money they’ve accepted from these types of companies over the last 10 years. They shouldn’t be accepting $1 from Google.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#348

Post by salawat »

jkhdigital wrote: post #282
salawat wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No... Government asks nicely, and business decides whether being a known narc will kill their business prospects, then either hand over the data, or ask the Government to pretty please get a warrant so they have an excuse. Let's be realistic here.

And it's still a violation of the 4th amendment. Now, whether the fact that the violation occurred is surfaced in court, and successfully used to exonerate a defendant, is where the problems occur.

It is not a violation. Third Party Doctrine. You waive 4th Amendment once you share something with someone else. This is the same legal phenomena that pretty much guarantees LE will get access to card based financial activity, and telephone metadata.

They'll need a warrant for a wiretap, but tracing contact graph has been open season for as long as I've been around.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#349

Post by math_and_stuff »

user3939382 wrote: post #347
math_and_stuff wrote: post #345

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an irresponsible claim if not backed up with a citation. Further, I happen to monitor corporate funding to nonprofits (including the EFF) and public reporting suggests EFF only received $7500 from Google in 2018 and $25K from Facebook. Whereas Center for Democracy and Technology, which was founded by the former Executive Director of the EFF in 1994, received $430K and $500K, respectively. See https://news.blo…

“ Google gave the Electronic Frontier Foundation $75,000 in calendar year 2017, $15,500 in calendar year 2016, and $325,000 in calendar year 2015, according tax forms, annual reports, and interviews with the nonprofit.” Add up all the money they’ve accepted from these types of companies over the last 10 years. They shouldn’t be accepting $1 from Google.

All of the figures from said article add up to EFF receiving a total of $478K from Facebook and Google over four calendar years (2015 through 2018).

Of course I agree that these orgs shouldn't accept money from tech giants, but any critique should be done accurately with citations.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#350

Post by user3939382 »

math_and_stuff wrote: post #349
user3939382 wrote: post #347

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“ Google gave the Electronic Frontier Foundation $75,000 in calendar year 2017, $15,500 in calendar year 2016, and $325,000 in calendar year 2015, according tax forms, annual reports, and interviews with the nonprofit.” Add up all the money they’ve accepted from these types of companies over the last 10 years. They shouldn’t be accepting $1 from Google.

All of the figures from said article add up to EFF receiving a total of $478K from Facebook and Google over four calendar years (2015 through 2018). Of course I agree that these orgs shouldn't accept money from tech giants, but any critique should be done accurately with citations.

I don't think forum posts require citations, especially when they're correct. This isn't a peer-reviewed paper, it's a forum comment.
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