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“This project will only take 2 hours”

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Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#151

Post by jiggawatts »

selbstgebrannt wrote: post #95
jiggawatts wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I vaguely remember a rant some famous Linux developer went on about how setting up printing in Linux requires a dozen parameters, half of which are arcane nonsense that the printer manufacturer themselves probably doesn't know how to set up correctly. Meanwhile, on an Apple or Windows computer it can be literally just plug and print. The difference is that hiding those arcane input parameters takes work , and a lot o…

I believe you’re referring to ESR’s essay http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cups-horror.html

That's the one!

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#152

Post by h2odragon »

dmz73 wrote: post #7
h2odragon wrote: post #2

Great point, and a good way of illustrating it. But I have to respond: Or you could grab something similar and use that as a beginning point. Say, for this application, `clipman` which gives me a popup list of the last few clipboard entries. Get into that and add some regexp filter and log output and it need not even interfere with the original functionality.

I think that both article and you are missing a very big aspect of development - ongoing support. This is specially problematic when using existing code to create new product for a specific use case\client. It may not take very long but what everyone seems to forget is that this new product has to be maintained. Every time new feature is added to base code, it has to be tested with that new product as well. Repeat th…

"The new product has to be maintained" ... If i'm the only one using it, i kindof assume that burden implicitly.

One of the great ideas in open source is that others can use my software without me having a "maintenance burden" for their use. They can maintain their own copy if they like, depend on me, or decide shit don't work.

If I did my proposed hack i doubt I'd bother the upstream developers with it; if dozens of users like it, maybe later it could be made worthy of further public consideration. But "is the maintenance burden too high" as a consideration before you begin writing is a great excuse to never try.

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#153

Post by matheusmoreira »

jiggawatts wrote: post #78
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #72

I've gone down this rabbitole before, and yes, there are things that take two hours, and there are things that take a lot more. The problem is the scope - ie. are you trying to do what you said you'll do (miniature software to log urls), or are you adding 100s of requirements to the scope (gui, filters, privacy,...). We had a bunch of .xml files containing some data, and someone wanted a .csv file... sure, an hour ma…

I vaguely remember a rant some famous Linux developer went on about how setting up printing in Linux requires a dozen parameters, half of which are arcane nonsense that the printer manufacturer themselves probably doesn't know how to set up correctly. Meanwhile, on an Apple or Windows computer it can be literally just plug and print. The difference is that hiding those arcane input parameters takes work , and a lot o…

Printers are plug and play on Windows? That's not my experience. I have constant problems at work. Settings resetting, stupid printer driver GUIs nagging about ink, prints coming out wrong and making me go into the detailed settings to fix it. Rare are the days where I can just print the stuff I need with no fuss. I'm fortunate enough to be able to solve problems on my own. Coworkers are forced to call support and waste hours and hours of their time because of these printers. The scanning situation is even worse.

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#154

Post by OneTimePetes »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #72

I've gone down this rabbitole before, and yes, there are things that take two hours, and there are things that take a lot more. The problem is the scope - ie. are you trying to do what you said you'll do (miniature software to log urls), or are you adding 100s of requirements to the scope (gui, filters, privacy,...). We had a bunch of .xml files containing some data, and someone wanted a .csv file... sure, an hour ma…

In a ideal world- adding a simple user-gui, would be simple. As in- all edge cases and special cases, will not be handled, but just result in a error - that comes along with a suggested fix googled on stackoverflow. The "simple" program, teaches the users to program. Teaches them to leave an-alphabetism behind.

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#156

Post by sethammons »

This same effect is similar when given technical interviews. As someone who has given hundreds of technical interviews, when you design your coding task, give the candidate 3x the time it takes you (or someone else of similar leveling as the candidate) to do. The problem should also be based on a real thing the team has done and then distilled down to remove as much work-context as possible.

So a 2hr assignment should generally take the interviewer about 40min max. And an interviewer should never hand out a question or task they themselves have not solved.

This rule is generally applicable in in-person interviews where candidates usually have 45m-1hr and are nervous and on-the-spot. The question should take the interviewer about 15 minutes, and don't forget to have time to talk through their solution and give time at the end for their questions.

And the last piece of interviewer advice for now: look for reasons to hire the person. Identify what would this person add to the team and company. It is easy to find flaws in everyone.

Anyway, tangential to the article but relevant enough to share I think.

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#157

Post by OneTimePetes »

chiefalchemist wrote: post #123
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #72

I've gone down this rabbitole before, and yes, there are things that take two hours, and there are things that take a lot more. The problem is the scope - ie. are you trying to do what you said you'll do (miniature software to log urls), or are you adding 100s of requirements to the scope (gui, filters, privacy,...). We had a bunch of .xml files containing some data, and someone wanted a .csv file... sure, an hour ma…

> "...just add..." "It's just..." are the two words you never want to hear :)

Simply just add now.. each word increases the difficulty level by one increment.

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#158

Post by [deleted] »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #72

I've gone down this rabbitole before, and yes, there are things that take two hours, and there are things that take a lot more. The problem is the scope - ie. are you trying to do what you said you'll do (miniature software to log urls), or are you adding 100s of requirements to the scope (gui, filters, privacy,...). We had a bunch of .xml files containing some data, and someone wanted a .csv file... sure, an hour ma…

[deleted]

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#159

Post by Koshkin »

rightbyte wrote: post #144
jeroenhd wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I'm a bit rusty but I feel like I could've done this project in C# with WinForms in a bit over 2 hours. Not all the advanced features asked for, but the minimal viable product. It's a shame that Microsoft is shifting away from the old, reliable WinForms for their new UWP system because making a quick and dirty implementation of many or these requirements would actually take very little time for many moderat…

> VB6, despite its stupid programming language, is still the golden standard for a GUI application design I think the reason is that many programmers have an urge to do things in a stupidly hard and complex way to look competent. Real programmers do not use GUI drag and drop design tools.

But real real programmers use whatever the hell gets the job done faster.

Re: “This project will only take 2 hours”

#160

Post by mwcampbell »

AstralStorm wrote: post #105
TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of my CS teachers actually said "The programming is always the easy part. Designing the features and the interface usually takes 95% of the time."

Your CS teacher never looked at a web browser from the inside, or at other actual big scale software.

Still, the teacher is right for most user-facing software that most of us will ever write.
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