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The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

theintercept.com

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Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#271

Post by jkhdigital »

ethanbond wrote: post #255
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Data held by 3rd parties falls under "papers and effects".

Not really. It’s the service’s papers and effects, which happen to contain information about you. There’s obviously something very wrong here, but it’s a dead end to say no one can sell the government info about people. Need a different approach in the vein of outlawing crazy TOSs, keeping user ownership of their data even if used to make a service operate, right to be forgotten, etc.

As far as I know, a warrant is required to tap a landline phone. I don't see how the principle behind that (reasonable) interpretation of the 4th amendment would not also apply to any kind of data (or metadata) from Internet traffic. Just because some 3rd party collected what is, by legal precedent, clearly considered personal effects and papers does not mean that 3rd party can grant absolution to the government in its need for a warrant to obtain that same data.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#272

Post by ineedasername »

Ansil849 wrote: post #247
LogonType10 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mint mobile. Buy the SIM card with cash. People say they want privacy, but people say a lot of things they don't mean. Instead I look at their actions. No one's willing to inconvenience themselves even slightly for privacy.

> Mint mobile. Buy the SIM card with cash. Where can you buy a SIM card with cash and not have to show any ID? And for bonus points: where you will also not be recorded on CCTV doing so.

You used to be able to buy mint mobile cards at Best buy, maybe still can.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#273

Post by jkhdigital »

JasonFruit wrote: post #207
nostromo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: "Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The fourth amendment doesn't address the case where people voluntarily provide information to a third party which contracts with the government to pass it on. It's indicative of the attitude we should have in the matter, but it's not basis enough for a legitimate Supreme Court opinion — not that that will prevent one being given, mind you. There really does need to be a law preventing government from contracting with…

How is this not different from asking a phone company for the transcript of a private conversation? Or of asking a bank for account statements? It is the nature of any sufficiently complex economy that private entities will possess extremely intimate knowledge about their customers, knowledge which their customers "voluntarily" provided in the course of business. None of this has any bearing whatsoever on the constraints applied by the 4th amendment, unless we are trying to move toward the interpretation that literally any interaction with the outside world is subject to unlimited surveillance by the state.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#274

Post by ineedasername »

more_corn wrote: post #234
ineedasername wrote: post #182

Unfortunately, this isn't really the Fed's buying their way around the 4th amendment as the article states: it's people selling away their 4th amendment rights by giving their personal data & right to resell it to companies that will sell to anyone with the cash to buy it.

I didn't give anyone shit. Don't accuse me (or anyone else) of that. This is advertising tracking data that normal people can't avoid generating. Ever had a product advertisement follow you around the web? That's the kind of data we're talking about here. I aggressively block, limit and quash everything like this (to the point of things often not working on my networks and devices) and I still generate massive amount…

You're point would have been better made without the confrontational tone and upfront profanity.

The article specifically talks about apps as well, and that is a user choice. Web pages also ask for location data in popups: this can be denied to them, which limits (though only limit, not prevent) pinpoint location tracking. I never said all tracking can be prevented. I said that people give away their personal data. That is a true statement regardless of whether certain types of data are taken without their consent.

I think we're probably (mostly, or at least partly) on the same page here. But if you want to continue a discussion that's fine, but only if you review HN community guidelines on discourse and civility beforehand. Also not that I often go days without revisiting threads to see if further conversation on a topic would interest me, but I'll try to make a trip back to this one to check in.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#275

Post by ethanbond »

jkhdigital wrote: post #271
ethanbond wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really. It’s the service’s papers and effects, which happen to contain information about you. There’s obviously something very wrong here, but it’s a dead end to say no one can sell the government info about people. Need a different approach in the vein of outlawing crazy TOSs, keeping user ownership of their data even if used to make a service operate, right to be forgotten, etc.

As far as I know, a warrant is required to tap a landline phone. I don't see how the principle behind that (reasonable) interpretation of the 4th amendment would not also apply to any kind of data (or metadata) from Internet traffic. Just because some 3rd party collected what is, by legal precedent, clearly considered personal effects and papers does not mean that 3rd party can grant absolution to the government in i…

Telephones actually have a specific exemption to what’s called Third Party Doctrine: the government’s right to acquire information sans warrant when that information is lawfully held by a third party.

Telcos are exempt for exactly the reason you mention: phones are really important to daily life and they collect tons of sensitive data as a side effect of normal use.

IMO this is one of the more viable routes to getting this behavior changed: expand Third Party Doctrine exemptions to a lot more services, but to do that we’d have to confront just how much data we’re choosing to share, and whether we’re actually choosing to share it.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#276

Post by jkhdigital »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #249
nostromo wrote: post #8

We need a Supreme Court ruling or law that says if the government doesn’t have a warrant to collect your data, they also can’t buy it from third parties. We also need privacy protections so these companies wouldn’t exist in the first place.

Are warrants necessary? I thought a warrant was a legal way to compel compliance. If the company who owns the data wants to sell it then that's that. It either shouldn't be collected or if it is then the sale should be prohibited.

If I hire a hitman who murders you, I will be guilty of first-degree murder. Our legal doctrine is sophisticated enough to handle this kind of first-order misdirection.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#277

Post by JasonFruit »

RNCTX wrote: post #266
JasonFruit wrote: post #261

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're making the opposite argument from what you hope to. You start off suggesting that the fourth amendment might apply here, but then point out that in every analogous case you can think of , the court has declined to stand up for people wronged by government acting through corporations. What makes you think they would do differently here? More to the point, why do you want the judicial branch to exercise…

Let me clarify: I'm not suggesting that precedent and consistency demand one way or the other, I'm saying precedent and consistency only matter until it's a corporation with lots of political donations brought to bear, in which case precedent and consistency cease to matter. Therefore, arguing precedent and consistency is relatively pointless. My point was an exercise in "anything goes, so make the law fit the argume…

I'm sorry to nitpick, but a judge can't outlaw anything. Judges don't make laws. They interpret them, and I can't imagine a court willing to opine with any sort of honesty that the fourth amendment provides the sort of protection you're suggesting. I'm as angry about it as anyone, but I recognize that neither my opinion nor my anger is law, a sentiment which I hope for the courts to share.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#278

Post by ineedasername »

nerbert wrote: post #258
ineedasername wrote: post #182

Unfortunately, this isn't really the Fed's buying their way around the 4th amendment as the article states: it's people selling away their 4th amendment rights by giving their personal data & right to resell it to companies that will sell to anyone with the cash to buy it.

Nice sophism. Doesn’t hold.

People willingly give up a lot of data about themselves. We can have a conversation about the details if you're willing to do more than just basically say "you're wrong" without justifying that. Of course you're under no obligation to do that, but it's otherwise a waste of time and low-effort posts run counter to HN community guidelines.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#279

Post by dqv »

Ansil849 wrote: post #247
LogonType10 wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mint mobile. Buy the SIM card with cash. People say they want privacy, but people say a lot of things they don't mean. Instead I look at their actions. No one's willing to inconvenience themselves even slightly for privacy.

> Mint mobile. Buy the SIM card with cash. Where can you buy a SIM card with cash and not have to show any ID? And for bonus points: where you will also not be recorded on CCTV doing so.

At any store. There is no registration requirement for SIM cards in the US. Wearing a mask is completely socially acceptable in the US now :)

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#280

Post by ineedasername »

boulos wrote: post #224
ineedasername wrote: post #182

Unfortunately, this isn't really the Fed's buying their way around the 4th amendment as the article states: it's people selling away their 4th amendment rights by giving their personal data & right to resell it to companies that will sell to anyone with the cash to buy it.

Just to clarify: the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department are separate things.

When I said Feds I meant it as the federal government in general, not a reference to The (Fed)eral Reserve. Because I'm guessing that if Treasury can do this, it's also an option available to any investigative branch of the federal government.
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