The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people • Hacker News Board

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#251

Post by pishpash » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:03 AM UTC

WarOnPrivacy wrote: post #239

mmcdermott wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd agree that the 4th Amendment ought to cover it. It isn't unambiguous, though. It isn't hard to see how a lawyer could point out that "and to forever secure the people, their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against all unreasonable searches and seizures under the guise of law" says nothing about purchasing data from a 3rd party. This wasn't really something that would have come up in the 18th century. Extend…

Can a Gov agent legally avoid the warrant requirement by paying some rando to perform an invasive search?

And furthermore can they reverse the order of said invasive search and payment through a wink-wink arrangement? I think the case is pretty strong against the government here. The EFF should bring a suit.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#252

Post by coldacid » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:07 AM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #246

We should be asking why the fuck this is for sale. Why is this okay? I hate this new normal but I look around and nobody cares. Nobody I talk to IRL gives a shit. This is our reality. How do we learn to navigate this strange new post privacy environment?

For a start, by opting out of as much of the "conveniences" that enable this bullshit to begin with. Easier said than done, but it's truly the most necessary step.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#253

Post by ethanbond » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

storyinmemo wrote: post #201

ineedasername wrote: post #182

Unfortunately, this isn't really the Fed's buying their way around the 4th amendment as the article states: it's people selling away their 4th amendment rights by giving their personal data & right to resell it to companies that will sell to anyone with the cash to buy it.

As I understand it, that's not quite true. I can't get a phone provider that won't pen register my data off. It's not an option and it's entirely not practical to conduct life without a phone of some kind.

Telco data is actually specifically protected specifically for this reason. It’s immune from third party doctrine, which is the whole, “the govt can ask someone else who has your data for it.”

Not sure how that exception is being handled in the Treasury case.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#254

Post by coldacid » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:08 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #238

ukd1 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, nothing is being searched or seized here; it seems like people gave up their personal data, ignored or didn't read a ToS, and companies are selling it - not being forced to give it up. I don't like it, but does it mean it's illegal?

Data held by 3rd parties falls under "papers and effects".

According to what law or precedent?

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#255

Post by ethanbond » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:10 AM UTC

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #238

ukd1 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But, nothing is being searched or seized here; it seems like people gave up their personal data, ignored or didn't read a ToS, and companies are selling it - not being forced to give it up. I don't like it, but does it mean it's illegal?

Data held by 3rd parties falls under "papers and effects".

Not really. It’s the service’s papers and effects, which happen to contain information about you.

There’s obviously something very wrong here, but it’s a dead end to say no one can sell the government info about people. Need a different approach in the vein of outlawing crazy TOSs, keeping user ownership of their data even if used to make a service operate, right to be forgotten, etc.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#256

Post by coldacid » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:11 AM UTC

downandout wrote: post #157

nostromo wrote: post #8

We need a Supreme Court ruling or law that says if the government doesn’t have a warrant to collect your data, they also can’t buy it from third parties. We also need privacy protections so these companies wouldn’t exist in the first place.

If SCOTUS outlawed buying the data, they’d just find ways around that too. Maybe they’d just start creating apps and directly monitoring people. With an unlimited marketing and development budget, they could wind up on the majority of Americans’ phones pretty fast. Depending on the kinds of apps they created, they might get warrantless access to millions of bank accounts, text messages, emails, video conferences, ful…

They'd just nudge their other Five Eyes friends into sharing their copies.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#257

Post by CameronNemo » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:15 AM UTC

shrubble wrote: post #24

Idea: get together some money, buy data of 100 of the CEOs of Fortune 500 companies. Publish everything found, see if the laws are then changed...

They did that, twice. Panama and Pandora papers (2016, 2021).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Papers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pandora_Papers

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#258

Post by nerbert » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:20 AM UTC

ineedasername wrote: post #182

Unfortunately, this isn't really the Fed's buying their way around the 4th amendment as the article states: it's people selling away their 4th amendment rights by giving their personal data & right to resell it to companies that will sell to anyone with the cash to buy it.

Nice sophism. Doesn’t hold.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#259

Post by gsk22 » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:29 AM UTC

LogonType10 wrote: post #248

Zak wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Certainly not. I want US intelligence agencies to take action against foreign threat actors to reduce their capacity to cause harm to US citizens and infrastructure.

So if the FBI can arrest them, they're criminals and we should follow criminal procedure, but if the FBI says they can't arrest them, then we "take action" (what action)?

You're bending over backwards to misunderstand.

The original author said: "I don't want the NSA to perform domestic civilian law enforcement functions"

In other words, the FBI (and police, etc) perform domestic law enforcement, following criminal procedure. The NSA, CIA, etc handle non-domestic (foreign) threats, in whatever manner they see fit.

Re: The U.S. Treasury is buying private app data to target and investigate people

#260

Post by inter_netuser » Wed, Nov 10, 2021, 1:48 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #194

nostromo wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here you go: "Amendment IV: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

Amendment IV doesn't actually expressly include a warrant requirement for anything. It requires searches and seizures to be reasonable . It also creates requirements for the basis of any warrants that are issued. It is a series of Supreme Court rulings that infers a general warrant requirement with some exceptions from that text.

The biggest weasel word of all time: "reasonable".