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Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

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Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#151

Post by dboreham »

zz865 wrote: post #127
DeathArrow wrote: post #76

I see many people here comparing US with EU in term of wages. But for the comparation to work taxes, healthcare, education, and subsidizing several public services like transport or heating should be taken into account. Also, the comparation should take into consideration PPP. $300 000 pre-taxes in US is not 3x $100 000 after-taxes in EU. Especially if you adjust for other factors.

Also quality of life in Europe is much higher. US everything is bigger, but Europe wins for Food quality, cleanliness, crime & safety, holidays, design.

Especially when you consider bacon.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#152

Post by nine_zeros »

Uptrenda wrote: post #149

I feel like when it comes to remote work the great divider will be 'cost of living' versus attained wages (and not 'talent.') As in: suppose I live in India where the cost of living is low. Due to wage arbitrage I can satisfy my cost of living quite easily by taking on low skilled software contracts. In this position, I am happy to take on the work because it more than covers my basic needs. On the other hand, if I w…

This is a good point but from what I understand about the tech ecosystem in India and China - they are both producing so many engineers that some are bound to specialize.

And they are. You will find amazing cloud provider specialists in those countries these days.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#153

Post by dboreham »

torginus wrote: post #96
DeathArrow wrote: post #76

I see many people here comparing US with EU in term of wages. But for the comparation to work taxes, healthcare, education, and subsidizing several public services like transport or heating should be taken into account. Also, the comparation should take into consideration PPP. $300 000 pre-taxes in US is not 3x $100 000 after-taxes in EU. Especially if you adjust for other factors.

I'm not sure what you are claiming. You probably won't get $300k in the EU, but if you do, a greater proportion of it will go to taxes - the things you get in return, like pensions or healthcare aren't as attractive at that income level. While US healthcare is very expensive, it's a service, which means it's tied to how much you pay, and not defined as a percentage of your gross income. If you make that much money, y…

> a greater proportion of it will go to taxes

Is this true? Taxes in the US are pretty high if you have a high income, and remember to include state and local taxes, and property taxes.

> the things you get in return, like pensions or healthcare aren't as attractive at that income level

Perhaps, but it's also attractive that _other_ _people_ get those benefits because ultimately the level of stress everyone else is under has an effect on your quality of life, one way or another.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#154

Post by dboreham »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #120
nly wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By my estimation, even factoring in the cost of living, medical insurance, tax differences etc, people working in the Bay area are taking home twice what an equally qualified dev would take home in say, London. If anything the contrast is even more stark across the EU

They also seem to work very long hours with long commutes and get few vacations. When I see that the average cost of a house in Cupertino is 2.5 million dollars for example, I would imagine most of those Apple engineers live far away.

It has been a few years since I lived in the South Bay, but generally Apple engineers would live somewhere reasonably local. A few would choose to commute from Gillroy or Santa Cruz for sure, but it's not like there are only zillionaires living in Cupertino and Santa Clara. Those are pretty mid-range places to live.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#155

Post by jsjsbdkj »

kelnos wrote: post #141
zcw100 wrote: post #138

Much ado about nothing. Developer jobs have been able to be outsourced and work remote for a couple of decades. If it was going to go that way it would have long ago. The rest of the world might be catching up to the remote work game but software development has been there, done that. If anything we've already experienced a pullback where outsourced developer jobs have been pulled back when they experienced the probl…

Agreed. The "worst" I see happening is some US tech jobs will go to Canada, since the time zones are "compatible" and culture is similar. People from Central and South America will get in the game somewhat as well, but I still think cultural and language barriers cause enough problems that there's still a bit of a moat. We've already been offshoring to Asia and Eastern Europe for decades now, and even though we shoul…

As someone from a second-tier Canadian city that had relatively few tech employers, this has definitely been a boon. Previously there was one game in town, and they attracted talent with a fancy office and above-market salaries for the region. I left after a couple years and joined a bay area startup remotely for a ~30% pay raise, and several of my former coworkers have as well. The company in question is suffering from a brain drain as old-time employees leave for greener pastures, and they struggle to attract international talent - because they didn't have much cross-polination with other tech companies in the past, there's a ton of NIH built by very smart new grads with no real world experience, and experienced engineers tend to take off once they realize the extent of the problems.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#156

Post by dboreham »

yosito wrote: post #9

Does the US have a monopoly on global talent that I'm unaware of?

Something to note is that the US culture in general seems to value technical expertise higher than some other cultures. For example, it's been a common experience for me to have Doctors and Dentists quiz me about my work and make statements that they wish they could have followed a similar career path. I doubt that would ever happen in England.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#157

Post by alistairSH »

presentation wrote: post #51
brianmcc wrote: post #29

I am sceptical. Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries. Timezones, language factors, cultural factors, retention and exclusivity challenges plus basic logistics stuff like payroll and taxes all matter a lot. None of that's insurmountable but it takes a level of effort that can be very high. And I say this…

I think it disrupts it in corners. I'm fully embracing it in the company I'm building, and several of my tech-startup-running friends are too, though I know plenty of people who aren't.

How are you dealing with local tax and labor laws?

My employer (mid-sized international software company) recently posted a revised work/travel/location policy. Basically, for anything over a month, we are only allowed to work in a locale where the company has an existing presence, and we have to notify the company in advance so they can plan payroll accordingly. I believe (thought not 100% sure) this is because they effectively transfer us to the local entity for the duration of the travel.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#158

Post by BlargMcLarg »

zcw100 wrote: post #138

Much ado about nothing. Developer jobs have been able to be outsourced and work remote for a couple of decades. If it was going to go that way it would have long ago. The rest of the world might be catching up to the remote work game but software development has been there, done that. If anything we've already experienced a pullback where outsourced developer jobs have been pulled back when they experienced the probl…

This implicitly assumes companies have acted rationally as a whole. It took a pandemic to get the majority of software dev to have a taste of remote work more than 1 day a week. Meanwhile we still have companies who burned their hands on outsourcing to the lowest bidder possible proclaiming remote work as a whole doesn't work. We have companies doing the bare minimum to accommodate remote work point out one deficiency, then proceed to say "look, see? Remote work doesn't work for us!".

I'm skeptical given there's this entire content called "Europe" with tons of English speakers, even native speakers, living largely in a 9-5 culture with plenty of skilled, educated developers willing to work unconventional hours and the US has barely tapped into that workforce yet. Given there are many legal issues and gates, but it's not like the US and Canada are the only places with skilled developers.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#159

Post by alistairSH »

foxyv wrote: post #112

The demand for software developers and experts is a bottomless well right now in EVERY country. Hiring everywhere is a challenge. The problem is that software development is genuinely challenging. Training is a huge problem because programs can't keep up with the new technology. In the past 10 years there have been 3 separate revolutions in our technology stack and 2 in our project management. Everything is moving at…

It's not just the $60k developer in Sleepville, USA. Salaries in Bangalore have literally sky-rocketed.
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