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Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

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Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#2
Interesting goals ...

> apps such as WhatsApp and Signal and billions of people around the world have the contents of their message protected against strong adversaries. However, while the message contents are encrypted, their metadata still leaks sensitive information

AFAIK Signal already protects metadata and does group chats. What does Rollercoaster add?

(I don't want to turn this into another thread about Signal. I'd hope we can focus on what Rollercoaster does.)

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#3

Interesting goals ... > apps such as WhatsApp and Signal and billions of people around the world have the contents of their message protected against strong adversaries. However, while the message contents are encrypted, their metadata still leaks sensitive information AFAIK Signal already protects metadata and does group chats. What does Rollercoaster add? (I don't want to turn this into another thread about Signal.…

How can Signal protect metadata? If the CIA hacks Signal's servers and sees a large encrypted payload coming in from me and going out to you, they know i texted you an image even if they can't see what it is.

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#4
post #3

Interesting goals ... > apps such as WhatsApp and Signal and billions of people around the world have the contents of their message protected against strong adversaries. However, while the message contents are encrypted, their metadata still leaks sensitive information AFAIK Signal already protects metadata and does group chats. What does Rollercoaster add? (I don't want to turn this into another thread about Signal.…

How can Signal protect metadata? If the CIA hacks Signal's servers and sees a large encrypted payload coming in from me and going out to you, they know i texted you an image even if they can't see what it is.

As I said, I don't want to discuss Signal. Their website explains a lot of their protocols, but they do protect metadata. I think at least one of your assumptions is wrong.

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#5
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Signal protect metadata? If the CIA hacks Signal's servers and sees a large encrypted payload coming in from me and going out to you, they know i texted you an image even if they can't see what it is.

As I said, I don't want to discuss Signal. Their website explains a lot of their protocols, but they do protect metadata. I think at least one of your assumptions is wrong.

Signal does not protect metadata cryptographically; it protects it via benevolence of the Signal server operators. Things could change any minute.

Rollercoaster protects metadata cryptographically by optimizing an existing cryptographic technique called mixnets for the group setting.

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#6

Interesting goals ... > apps such as WhatsApp and Signal and billions of people around the world have the contents of their message protected against strong adversaries. However, while the message contents are encrypted, their metadata still leaks sensitive information AFAIK Signal already protects metadata and does group chats. What does Rollercoaster add? (I don't want to turn this into another thread about Signal.…

AFAIK the signal protocol makes no guarantees about metadata. Signal the service makes claims about what they store (I.e., very little) but no properties of the protocol guarantee metadata anonymity (user X communicated with user Y). At the very least I believe signal metadata is vulnerable to traffic analysis which is in scope for the threat model for some alternate systems.

Vuvuzela would be something closer to providing metadata guarantees (observer cannot determine who I communicate with). Tor has some similarities.

A quick Google for “metadata anonymous chat” brings up these papers, which can point you in a good direction:

Small survey (vuvuzela, pung, tor) and discussion of performance/privacy trade off. https://www.mit.edu/~yossigi/metadata.pdf

Stadium (similar to vuvuzela, tries to optimize required cover noise): https://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/tyagi-stadium-e...

Dissent/Riffle are also in this vein, although I haven’t seen much work on those in a few years.

https://dedis.cs.yale.edu/dissent/

Rollercoaster seems to operate in this space, where computational overheard required by DC/mixnet solutions grows very large with large number of users. The novel contribution appears to be reducing that overhead without reducing guarantees provided by comparable systems.

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#7
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can Signal protect metadata? If the CIA hacks Signal's servers and sees a large encrypted payload coming in from me and going out to you, they know i texted you an image even if they can't see what it is.

As I said, I don't want to discuss Signal. Their website explains a lot of their protocols, but they do protect metadata. I think at least one of your assumptions is wrong.

Discussing Signal is somewhat unavoidable in this context though.

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#8

Interesting goals ... > apps such as WhatsApp and Signal and billions of people around the world have the contents of their message protected against strong adversaries. However, while the message contents are encrypted, their metadata still leaks sensitive information AFAIK Signal already protects metadata and does group chats. What does Rollercoaster add? (I don't want to turn this into another thread about Signal.…

Rollercoaster has a decentralised traffic-analysis resistant architecture whereas Signal is centralised.

With a centralised architecture such as Signal, Eve could monitor when Alice sends a message and correlate it over time to which endpoints receive a message soon thereafter. If Bob and Carol are in a group chat with Alice and they receive messages soon after Alice sends messages, Eve can assume over time that they're communicating with each other in a group chat. Due to the lack of cover traffic with Signal, the time of day, frequency and size of messages can be used to infer what they're doing or discussing. For Signal on mobile devices, the geolocation of the mobile device known from a cell tower network would also provide additional information about what Alice, Bob and Carol could be discussing.

With Rollercoaster, the idea is that Eve cannot discern between different messages flowing through the network as there is no identifying data (including the size of messages which are all constant). Eve is also hampered from conducting passive timing analysis of submission and receipt of messages (even in group chats) because every node on the network is sending messages at the same rate all year round and also buffering messages and releasing them in a randomised order (not FIFO). To Eve, a message being sent by Alice could be a real message, a cover message, a real message being relayed 1min after receipt from another node or a cover message being relayed 1min after receipt from another node.

With protection against Eve performing passive attacks in place, the focus moves to protecting against Eve performing active attacks including Sybil attacks (owning a considerable number of nodes in the network to try and control the entire mix net between Alice, Bob and Carol). Rollercoaster is based on Loopix[1] which includes "loop cover traffic" to detect Eve performing some forms of active attacks. The paper for an alternative mix net communication network Miranda[2] has more detail on how such mix networks can be defended against active attackers, and the numerous limitations that remain.

[1] https://www.usenix.org/conference/usenixsecurity17/technical...

[2] https://eprint.iacr.org/2017/1000.pdf

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#9
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I said, I don't want to discuss Signal. Their website explains a lot of their protocols, but they do protect metadata. I think at least one of your assumptions is wrong.

Discussing Signal is somewhat unavoidable in this context though.

> Discussing Signal is somewhat unavoidable in this context though.

In which case I feel the need to share this very interesting talk from Moxie about the negatives of decentralization from the POV of product. I have no education or horse in this race, but I found this talk very interesting and dare I say brave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8

Would love to be pointed to the best counterarguments, but again the focus on product was the interesting take for me.

Re: Rollercoaster: Communicating Efficiently and Anonymously in Large Groups

#10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Discussing Signal is somewhat unavoidable in this context though.

> Discussing Signal is somewhat unavoidable in this context though. In which case I feel the need to share this very interesting talk from Moxie about the negatives of decentralization from the POV of product. I have no education or horse in this race, but I found this talk very interesting and dare I say brave. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj3YFprqAr8 Would love to be pointed to the best counterarguments, but aga…

> Would love to be pointed to the best counterarguments, but again the focus on product was the interesting take for me.

I attempted to summarize the trade-offs in this post: https://snikket.org/blog/products-vs-protocols/

There are also a number of responses written by others, such as:

- An Objection to "The Ecosystem is Moving": https://gultsch.de/objection.html

- "Re. The Ecosystem is Moving": https://blog.jabberhead.tk/2019/12/29/re-the-ecosystem-is-mo...

- "Have you considered the alternative?" https://homebrewserver.club/have-you-considered-the-alternat...

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