Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#121

Post by qaq » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 4:56 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #119

qaq wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are really onto something truth is if you have 100K remote job in Spain you will hav better lifestyle than having 300K job in SV. If I only could convince my wife to move :(.

I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :) I think it would work out worse in SV though in terms of spending power. With the exception of tech toys which tend to be around the same price everywhere so relatively expensive in Spain. But I'd give up a lot. Being half a world away from family and also the other drawbacks I mentioned. No, I'm fine here.

I think with people getting more comfortable with remote teams getting a job for US entity from Spain should become easier.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#122

Post by bwb » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:37 PM UTC

da39a3ee wrote: post #104

bwb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. You are paid based on a mix of skills, taxes, other costs, job market, and where you live. Pay is not some absolute, it has a lot of factors (many I didn't mention). The ultimate question is are you happy with your pay and is it fair? Done :) There isn't some magical number out there and anything lower than that me…

> I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. Funny that my comment was so heavily upvoted. You are patronizing people, and I accuse you of it deliberately, knowing both that it is an accusation you may not welcome, and that it is difficult to infer from text-based communication. I suggest you pause and consider that this is a recurring accusation with sever…

lol, I am not sure what to tell you here, I wish you the best of luck :)

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#123

Post by bwb » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:38 PM UTC

Oddskar wrote: post #106

bwb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agreed with you :) But the key point being narrative around the American dream, freedom of religion/expression, and all the other things I mentioned. Moving to a new place and taking a risk is a feeling based decision. Sure we might dress it up with some logic, but at the end of the day the USA has soft power in spades.

It has relative soft power. The reason you hear lots of Brazilian devs wanting to move is due to the tremendous problems Brazil is facing. Not all countries have problems to this extent. From a EU-centric perspective the soft power the US have is not that strong.

I totally agree with you. I live in Europe.

But, globally brand America's brand is quite strong still. And that is my point, don't forget how powerful that brand has been for the last 100 years. It doesn't disappear overnight.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#124

Post by bwb » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:43 PM UTC

0xy wrote: post #107

bwb wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure they are, like I said their pay is perfectly fine and kinda blown away you think it isn't. I don't understand what the complaint is on pay as they are making great money. What is the specific complaint you have or that you see? This is text based comments, inferring attitude is a huge black hole of impossibility :)

Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for? That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age. Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're…

Yes I would be totally ok with that. Especially if that $100k include a real pension when I retire that I can depend on, no threat of my kids getting shot at school, health insurance that covers me when I get sick without having to go into bankruptcy, bike paths over the entire country, paternity for when I have a kid, subsidized child care for everyone so parents can be more sane, etc etc...

You think this is just about talent and it is not. It is combination of so many things such as taxes, social care, government ideology, culture in that country, retirement/pensions, cost of living in that location, minimum wage anchoring, how much it costs to dismiss someone, etc...

Also, barely anyone in the USA makes 350k, so this entire argument is kinda moot. Barely any developers make $350,000 so this comparison is just kinda crazy.

Even in the USA average salary is $177k for Senior executives: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2021#salary-comp-t...

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#125

Post by root_axis » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:49 PM UTC

flatiron wrote: post #75

blensor wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except that developers from countries that earn on average less than their US counterparts have an incentive to work for a US company remotely but a developer from the US does not have many incentives to work for less for a company abroad

The politicians will fight back with work visas and limits etc. protecting domestic work forces should be a primary concern for politicians.

Visas and similar restrictions are not a factor for remote work.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#126

Post by zz865 » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:51 PM UTC

brianmcc wrote: post #29

I am sceptical. Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries. Timezones, language factors, cultural factors, retention and exclusivity challenges plus basic logistics stuff like payroll and taxes all matter a lot. None of that's insurmountable but it takes a level of effort that can be very high. And I say this…

> Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries.

Well in the corporate world offshoring really is everywhere. Even Goldman Sach's, #2 office for engineers in is Bangalore.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#127

Post by zz865 » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:52 PM UTC

DeathArrow wrote: post #76

I see many people here comparing US with EU in term of wages. But for the comparation to work taxes, healthcare, education, and subsidizing several public services like transport or heating should be taken into account. Also, the comparation should take into consideration PPP. $300 000 pre-taxes in US is not 3x $100 000 after-taxes in EU. Especially if you adjust for other factors.

Also quality of life in Europe is much higher. US everything is bigger, but Europe wins for Food quality, cleanliness, crime & safety, holidays, design.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#128

Post by GekkePrutser » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 5:54 PM UTC

qaq wrote: post #121

GekkePrutser wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm nowhere near 100K in Spain but I wouldn't make 300K in that job in SV either :) I think it would work out worse in SV though in terms of spending power. With the exception of tech toys which tend to be around the same price everywhere so relatively expensive in Spain. But I'd give up a lot. Being half a world away from family and also the other drawbacks I mentioned. No, I'm fine here.

I think with people getting more comfortable with remote teams getting a job for US entity from Spain should become easier.

It's possible, but there is the time difference thing, especially when it comes to the east coast. We have 6 hours to the east coast, 9 to the west coast. In Spain people like to start and finish late (having dinner at 9pm is normal!) but this difference is uncomfortably much. It's not really handy if you have to work US time, bring your kids to work, have a social life, etc. In my current job we're the "inbetweeners" between the India and US teams. We keep in touch with both because India and the US don't normally collaborate much due to an even worse timezone situation.

Also, why would they bother paying US salaries to employees stationed in Spain? When I moved here from Ireland (also EU) my salary actually went down a bit :) And they already scaled me up a lot within my salary class, if I had come in here 'off the street' I would have made even less. Multinationals already have this scenario a lot and they pay local wages.

People are willing to work here for local wages. And local conditions are mandatory here if you live here. Working for a US company and for US conditions while living here will not fly by EU law (the only exception is NGOs like the UN).

So I don't think it will change too much to be honest. If anything it will provide more downward pressure on US salaries than upward pressure on the ones here.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#129

Post by brundolf » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

zz865 wrote: post #126

brianmcc wrote: post #29

I am sceptical. Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries. Timezones, language factors, cultural factors, retention and exclusivity challenges plus basic logistics stuff like payroll and taxes all matter a lot. None of that's insurmountable but it takes a level of effort that can be very high. And I say this…

> Reminds me of the predictions 20 years ago that outsourcing/offshoring would eliminate hands-on developer jobs in US/UK and other "expensive" countries. Well in the corporate world offshoring really is everywhere. Even Goldman Sach's, #2 office for engineers in is Bangalore.

Large corps have an economy of scale with this stuff. The smaller the company, the bigger a barrier it is

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#130

Post by azinman2 » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

UncleMeat wrote: post #111

hwers wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For americans this sounds like horror but for the international perspective this sounds wonderful (and a fair readjustment for work that we always felt was no different than our american counterparts). Just pointing out the semi obvious thing that the majority who reads this will see it as fantastic news.

Yep. Every time I see a US-focused article complaining about pay adjustments when people move to new regions to work remotely I just wonder where everybody has been for all these years where their coworkers in London or Vancouver are getting paid 50% of their wage for the same work.

Keep in mind SV is full of immigrants….