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Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

ndpr.nd.edu

81–90 of 106 posts

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#81

It all boils down to how the simulation was written. If we can make it crash, time travel being possible is very likely. If the parent universe is running an exploration of possible universes according to consistent laws of physics, upon crash it will probably backtrack the simulation to a previous timestamp, fiddle a little in the phase space, then continue forward. One way to make it crash is making the simulation…

> One way to make it crash is making the simulation crawling to a stop by requiring always more computation to be done by preventing the simulator to take shortcuts in the computing process.

Isn't this the reason for mass-induced time-dilation? When you add more mass (computational complexity) into a region it runs slower, to the point of being removed completely from the sim, hidden behind an event horizon and described by just a couple of parameters.

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#82
post #4

This is like saying we will never fly a plane. Do you really think people in the 1200's could fathom a phone or the internet or access all information that ever has been on a device that fits on your phone? Its incredibly naïve to think that time travel isn't possible purely based on "laws of physics".

[deleted]

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"An important assumption going into the theorem is that neither Alice nor Bob is allowed, in any way, to affect the preparation of the initial state" The assumption is that the past can't change the future, which it obviously can to any observer. You change what you do today and it will change the future. If the two particles are entangled, one particle would change the initial state of the other wouldn't it? Sort of…

The point of the no-communication theorem is that if you transport one half of the entangled pair to Alice, and one half of the entangled pair to Bob, neither of them can use measurements on their half of the entangled pair to communicate. It's forbidden by QM as we know it. If Alice can affect the initial state, of course she can use that to communicate something to Bob, because half of that state then gets transpor…

"so almost nobody has tried, and nobody expects it to work because it that's not how entanglement is understood to work."

Thank you.

I'm thinking you have schrodinger's box, you have particles set inside it you know are all entangled with other particles in the future. You read the initial 'code'.

Can you change the particle from on/off? What happens if you eliminate a particle in the future that is entangled with a past particle/vice versa; will that particle change states or somehow escape the box?

How would you know if the code had changed? If you observed it in the past the past would have changed so it would seem like nothing had changed. Or would both the past observation and future (if possible) be changed at the same time?

So I guess what I'm asking is the theory saying it's actually impossible, or just saying we can't currently figure out a way to see it?

If the past and future changed at the same time we probably wouldn't currently be looking at that as communicated information, even if information was being communicated to the past from the future. Now what about the initial communication that changed the past? Does it even need to occur any longer once the past and future have changed, or do we just sort of slide into the new future by altering the past?

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This assumes some fixed, absolute "background" space through which the universe is moving; the idea being that you'll stay in the same position in "background" space but all of the things you care about (e.g the earth) have moved on. Is space not relative?

That makes no sense to me. One particle goes in one direction at a particular velocity and another particle goes in another direction at another velocity. They diverge over time. When you travel through time, which particle’s path do you follow through space? I often think along the gp’s lines and would love an explanation of why it’s wrong?

It all depends on your point of view (literally, frame of reference). The Earth can be considered:

- stationery (geocentric observer)

- orbiting the Sun (heliocentric observer)

- spiraling about the Sun (galaxy-centric observer)

All of these are simultaneously correct and bonkers in conjunction. Hence, you need a frame of reference if you're specifying movement.

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#85
post #81

It all boils down to how the simulation was written. If we can make it crash, time travel being possible is very likely. If the parent universe is running an exploration of possible universes according to consistent laws of physics, upon crash it will probably backtrack the simulation to a previous timestamp, fiddle a little in the phase space, then continue forward. One way to make it crash is making the simulation…

> One way to make it crash is making the simulation crawling to a stop by requiring always more computation to be done by preventing the simulator to take shortcuts in the computing process. Isn't this the reason for mass-induced time-dilation? When you add more mass (computational complexity) into a region it runs slower, to the point of being removed completely from the sim, hidden behind an event horizon and descr…

Could be, but it only works in a non-adversarial context. Biological numerical instabilities are a tougher beast to tame.

When you have to simulate a big star you can do it quickly by approximating it by a sphere of a certain temperature. The bigger the star, the more the law of large numbers apply and the better your approximation get.

When you have to simulate a computer that would be the size of a star, you can't take any shortcut. And the amount of computation that a computer the size of a star would allow you to do according to the limits of physics is huge, and would allow to simulate the full universe many times (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limits_of_computation).

One way to avoid a simulation crash would be to introduce time-dilation effect to throttle the quantity of computation locally, but fundamentally it's a very hard problem equivalent to the halting problem.

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#86
post #16

> Nikk Effingham’s book is an exploration of all things time travel (where time travel is to be read as backwards time travel, that is, travel to an earlier time). I'd be interested to know if forward time travel is easier than backwards time travel. Seems to avoid a lot of paradoxes.

That was a favorite joke of my kids: I’ve invented time travel, but I can only go in one direction at regular speed.

Just go into the mountains to speed up a bit. Where "a bit" is measured in nanoseconds per day; nevertheless... it does work.

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#87
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know, I've seen this discussion carried out any number of times, and the math just doesn't convince people this is impossible. So, try this on for size: If this did work, it would be easy . It is every bit as easy as the idea sounds. Any lab set up for "quantum" experimentation could do this; entangling two things is step one in any experiment that you could call "quantum". Yet this is not established, easy techn…

Obviously you're right on the physics, but this is like saying that supersonic flight must be impossible, otherwise we'd all be commuting that way. If you can send a regular signal around the planet faster than you can read a quantum entanglement state, which seems entirely likely (to say nothing of bandwidth), then the technology would never have a useful terrestrial application.

This is why I hammered so hard on if it worked, this would be easy.

Colonizing other planets may or may not be possible, but if it is, everyone expects it will be very difficult. If supersonic flight is easy, it's obvious that it isn't necessarily easy. (It is, of course, possible, and it isn't easy. It's solved, but it's not easy.)

If FTL communication was just a matter of entangling particles and poking them to collapse this way or that, thus sending a message on the other side, it would be easy. It would be a lab demonstration in every college-level quantum mechanics class, right next to the double-slit experiment.

"If you can send a regular signal around the planet faster than you can read a quantum entanglement state, which seems entirely likely (to say nothing of bandwidth), then the technology would never have a useful terrestrial application."

If you haven't read those links ajuc linked in this conversation, you should. It's a very similar idea, getting to QM by taking superluminal relativity seriously. (I suggest this as an "interesting followup" to you point, not disagreement.)

Still, given that the "entangled state" is likely to be as easy as detecting polarization on a photon, since that's the whole point, it doesn't seem likely this would be the case. More likely the case is simply that FTL communication is impossible. You can send an entangled state around the world and read it in two places, no problem, today, plenty quickly. That's how the quantum key distribution works. You just can't communicate with it because you have no influence over how the entangled state collapses.

(In fact, there's a sense in which quantum key distribution works precisely because the properties you'd need for FTL communication don't exist. If they did, quantum key distribution wouldn't work safely!)

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#88
post #34

Recently an interesting paper came out that starts by accepting all solutions to special relativity (usually the faster-than-light solutions are ignored) and goes on to derive the axioms of quantum mechanics from just that. It turns out what you need to prevent timetravel paradoxes is exactly quantum mechanics. https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/540753 https://arxiv.org/abs/1910.02780 I don't understand the who…

> It could be interpreted as universe having a separate family of particles going backward in time synchronizing entangled particles over distance. Are you kidding me? I'm a big Nolan fan but I really threw up my hands at "Tenet". It didn't feel like it made a whole lot of sense.

In case you didn't know, Physicist Richard Feynman proposed the idea that positrons could be electrons moving backwards in time in his paper "The Theory of Positrons." He even takes it further to say that it could be that there is only 1 electron in the entire universe and it is traveling forwards and backwards in time to appear in the positions of all the electrons and positrons.

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of the no-communication theorem is that if you transport one half of the entangled pair to Alice, and one half of the entangled pair to Bob, neither of them can use measurements on their half of the entangled pair to communicate. It's forbidden by QM as we know it. If Alice can affect the initial state, of course she can use that to communicate something to Bob, because half of that state then gets transpor…

"so almost nobody has tried, and nobody expects it to work because it that's not how entanglement is understood to work." Thank you. I'm thinking you have schrodinger's box, you have particles set inside it you know are all entangled with other particles in the future. You read the initial 'code'. Can you change the particle from on/off? What happens if you eliminate a particle in the future that is entangled with a…

IE could you do an experiment with two boxes of quantum entangled particles, one box is read, the other box in a 'sealed room' for a set amount of time. If the entanglement through time is possible, and altering a entangled particle so it's sister particle responds is possible, would there be a chance that when you changed the entangled particle in the sealed room after it was unsealed it would change the particle in the observed room?

Or would it be like where entanglement through time may be possible, the original measurements in both boxes would change instantaneously if the 'later' box was changed so it's, as far as we know, unmeasurable?

Could you create a black box of entangled particles and a code to read them and post it and just hope someone would write to you from the future and you could read it? Sort of like Hawking's time travel party nobody showed up to but for information and just hope something shows up someday. So the code never changes, but the entangled particles in the box can. This could potentially get around the problem of not knowing if the particles were switched in the box. You know the code which doesn't change so you could simply read the box every day and hope that someone from the future had set the particles to a definite state that was readable. I understand that if the particles are observed it doesn't automatically change the particle, but if the particles are observed one way and are continuously observed then they must stay that way, and then the entangled particles must be the opposite of that. From what I understand you're saying it'd be a one and done transmission, but then it wouldn't break the no communication theorem and would be ftl (using a slower than light method, the code which would travel through time at regular speed, to jumpstart the process).

Re: Time Travel: Probability and Impossibility

#90
post #65
post #35

Is there any sci-fi story where time travel is possible, but the government has mandated that the only legal purpose for it is to offset the effects of time dilation from near-lightspeed voyages? Basically as you travel to your destination, you are also traveling backward in time so you can arrive at the same time you started relative to when you left, essentially making a sort of “warp drive”. To an observer on Eart…

Universal War One (comic) has such a device. Spoiler warning, someone invents a way to travel faster than light and hides the fact that it is perfectly capable of traveling through time too. Most of his time developing the device is actually spent putting safeguards around this feature and concealing it.

Actually it's in Universal War One: Revelations #2. The comic has way more time travel and time dilatation than I remembered.
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