Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#101

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

Oddskar wrote: post #31

JohnWhigham wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I think you overestimate how much things have rapidly declined. Is the US's heyday in the past? Of course. It is on a decline. But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. As Dave Chappelle said, Twitter is not a real place.

> But if your entire lens of what is happening in the country is news channels and the Internet, you need a reality check. Not sure what your point is. How do you think people shape their opinions and perceptions on things if not via media and the internet? What would this “reality check” consist of? I would move to the US for a number of years just so I can determine whether I want to move there? Should I read the c…

[deleted]

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#102

Post by da39a3ee » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:32 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #40

da39a3ee wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They can pay a senior engineer $350k in the US, or an equivalent experience senior engineer $100k in Europe. Why can they do this?

This is mostly about FANGs and they can do it because they make $1m plus in revenue per employee. These are senior positions so don't think this is normal. Average dev salaries are $60k to $150k in USA depending on a ton of factors. The USA also has no social safety net so it's like comparing oranges to apples when you look at parts of Asia or Europe :)

But the FAANGS have offices in Europe and pay those employees less, unless I’m mistaken. In which case you can’t argue that US has FAANGS and others don’t.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#103

Post by pbaka » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:34 PM UTC

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #83

bwb wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, but if you read down the list the author notes in that list Panama, Croatia, which while beautiful and stable in some ways... are also knows for corruption and other issues. The USA is very affordable if you look outside of SF/NY and compare it to Western Europe (esp with tech pay). What are you comparing it too?

It's certainly affordable with tech pay - but... that's the point of the article isn't it? Tech pay is sky high because US is overvaluing US talent. Most millennials in the US cannot afford to buy a home here. Agreed Panama is a bad example, but not Croatia - it's politically stable, and I don't believe many people leave because of corruption.

> Agreed Panama is a bad example, but not Croatia - it's politically stable, and I don't believe many people leave because of corruption.

They just announced the results of the census in Croatia this week. It lost a fifth of its population last 20 years. And oh yes, they do, throughout the whole of the Balkans. It's as much a reason to leave for most as the money.

They all believe "the West" is well regulated everywhere, everything is clean, corruption doesn't exist, justice will be fair, they will see no discrimination, bosses will follow the law, etc. It's soft-power working wonders.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#104

Post by da39a3ee » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:36 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #98

da39a3ee wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, you’re patronizing people outside the US telling them that they should be happy with lower salary. US tech workers have their healthcare paid in addition to their high compensation. Someone earning 120k in London might earn $350k in the US. It’s not up to you to tell the little Europeans that they shouldn’t want their missing $230k because their healthcare and public services make up for it.

I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that. You are paid based on a mix of skills, taxes, other costs, job market, and where you live. Pay is not some absolute, it has a lot of factors (many I didn't mention). The ultimate question is are you happy with your pay and is it fair? Done :) There isn't some magical number out there and anything lower than that me…

> I am not patronizing anyone living outside the USA and please don't sling around accusations like that.

Funny that my comment was so heavily upvoted. You are patronizing people, and I accuse you of it deliberately, knowing both that it is an accusation you may not welcome, and that it is difficult to infer from text-based communication.

I suggest you pause and consider that this is a recurring accusation with several upvotes, and that you may not realize that you are being patronizing.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#105

Post by 0xy » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:46 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #44

ctvo wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the rest of Europe pays 80k.

Very fair salary, especially when you take into account they have real health care, real social safty nets, etc.

Healthcare isn't really a great argument. Aside from the low hanging argument that healthcare is covered or subsidized by most tech companies in the US, the cost of healthcare pales in comparison to the difference between $100k and $350k.

The value of healthcare is not $250,000 per year per person. It's not even 1/10th of that.

As for safety nets, that depends on personal risk tolerance. As an experienced developer, it's not particularly difficult to find work. Even an average one.

We're talking about a massive difference in pay. That difference could amount to literally millions of dollars in retirement for your family.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#106

Post by Oddskar » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:52 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #82

DeathArrow wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tons of people want to move to the USA for nature, stability, pay, freedom of expression, freedom of speech/religion/life, low corruption, house prices are low compared to many many places, mixing pot, opportunity, american dream etc... High level of crime, too much politics, education too expensive, healthcare too expensive, no public pension funds.

Totally agreed with you :) But the key point being narrative around the American dream, freedom of religion/expression, and all the other things I mentioned. Moving to a new place and taking a risk is a feeling based decision. Sure we might dress it up with some logic, but at the end of the day the USA has soft power in spades.

It has relative soft power. The reason you hear lots of Brazilian devs wanting to move is due to the tremendous problems Brazil is facing. Not all countries have problems to this extent.

From a EU-centric perspective the soft power the US have is not that strong.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#107

Post by 0xy » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:54 PM UTC

bwb wrote: post #39

da39a3ee wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're not receiving the same CoL adjusted compensation as Americans. Your attitude sounds a little patronizing.

Sure they are, like I said their pay is perfectly fine and kinda blown away you think it isn't. I don't understand what the complaint is on pay as they are making great money. What is the specific complaint you have or that you see? This is text based comments, inferring attitude is a huge black hole of impossibility :)

Why is it okay to be paid $100,000 for the exact same job as your equivalent counterparts in the US make 3.5x for?

That's millions if you save the majority for retirement. It could be the difference between nursing homes and an independent travel-filled retirement at a reasonable age.

Of course, I'm not here to make decisions for anyone. And people have personal reasons to not pursue immigration, that's fine. They're making a steep trade-off, though.

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#108

Post by LurkingPenguin » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 1:56 PM UTC

londons_explore wrote: post #97

LurkingPenguin wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> All those cases can be dealt with by the foreign company who knows the local laws and customs. I haven't seen it mentioned here but while in many cases you can as an employer outsource payroll and labor law compliance, you can never completely shed the potential liabilities that come with employing someone and this can get complicated when your workforce is based in different countries. There are a lot of things th…

In my model, you aren't hiring the worker. You are buying whatever code they write. The local firm is the one who technically employs the worker and takes on all these risks. At any point, you can stop buying more code, and the local firm will have to face the consequences.

You're referring to what's called an "employer of record" (EOR) and this isn't as straightforward or risk-free as you think it is.

First, there are some countries in which the law would consider your business to be the employer of a worker even if the worker was hired by an EOR. And others place limits on EOR relationships, such as the length of time a worker can be continuously employed by an EOR.

Second, an individual you employ through an EOR can still take actions that potentially expose your business to risk. Think data breaches, intellectual property theft, etc. In many legal matters, since you are not the employer, you would not even have the ability to take direct action against the worker and would instead have to have the EOR act on your behalf, which is of course another source of counterparty risk.

Finally, your relationship with the EOR is not a one-way street as you seem to think ("the local firm will have to face the consequences"). Under any EOR contract, your business has obligations to the EOR as well and a reputable EOR is actually probably far more likely than an average employee to go after you in your home country if you breach the contract.

As an expat who has done business in numerous countries, I offer the following blanket advice: never do business (in any shape or form) in a country where you're not capable of and prepared to get your hands dirty locally (with the legal system, etc.).

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#109

Post by qaq » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 2:08 PM UTC

machiaweliczny wrote: post #62

yosito wrote: post #9

Does the US have a monopoly on global talent that I'm unaware of?

As long as noone else is able/willing to match pay - kinda. In Poland for example normal pay is $5K but for US startups you can get $10K. Only TikTok or Switzerland has offers in this range.

Ireland aside from usual suspects Stripe, Workday and a bunch of others you can get 200K total comp

Re: Remote work will break the US monopoly on global talent

#110

Post by tester34 » Tue, Nov 09, 2021, 2:47 PM UTC

machiaweliczny wrote: post #62

yosito wrote: post #9

Does the US have a monopoly on global talent that I'm unaware of?

As long as noone else is able/willing to match pay - kinda. In Poland for example normal pay is $5K but for US startups you can get $10K. Only TikTok or Switzerland has offers in this range.

$5K is normal pay in Poland? that's around 9 minimal wages