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Don’t do interviews, do discussions

thinkingthrough.substack.com

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Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#121

Post by xyzelement »

osrec wrote: post #93
xyzelement wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Stops you from being painted into a corner, and if you are, you can still leave with your dignity. Talk about wasting time. You are bothering to do the interview because for one reason or another you're interested in the job. It's weird to feel good leaving the interview where you somehow saved face for yourself by not answering any of the questions. You just guaranteed that you neither get the job nor learn anythi…

Not quite. Confidence is a big part of interviewing, and having someone turn the screw on you on some esoteric topic doesn't really help build your knowledge or your confidence.

That's totally subjective. What someone may perceive as "turning the screw" could simply mean "probing deeper" or "seeing how you handle tough questions". One can get self righteous about that but it may be costing you tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars in lost earnings.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#122

Post by flyinglizard »

dtoms wrote: post #108
flyinglizard wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I interview quite a bit of people. I always do it in a laid back, conversational style. When I ask technical questions, somewhere towards the middle or end of the session, I do it because I just want to know that the person I talked with understands some fundamentals (it's never a tricky question; just something basic like creating some threads, etc). I talk with them about their previous work, stuff they're proud of…

threading is your basic question at the end of an interview?

Yes, but really simple. It can get progressively worse though. Like: 1. Make a loop which counts and prints up to N 2. Now make it run in a thread 3. Now make another thread which only prints once this var hits modulo X == 0 etc

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#123

Post by mathgladiator »

xyzelement wrote: post #74
CalRobert wrote: post #26

I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. Paradoxically, I think I interview a lot better. I can steer conversation towards stuff I care about, and if they insist on being annoying, just thank them for their time and leave. Though this might just be a result of being pickier about who I interview with. If no…

>> "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders. I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. Obviously, when you're happy where you are, money is part of the equation to get you to move, but making it seem like the o…

I've said a variation of it, and it works exceptionally well if the other side is also mercenary.

A mercenary working for another mercenary can be a very educational experience, and I have found that it is far easier to work with other mercenaries because they can be focused and aligned quicker than people that need to be inspired.

Honestly, if I was a hiring manager, then I'd try to only hire mercenaries keeping things professional.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#124

Post by cema »

hfjkdh790sn wrote: post #50
throwaway98az8 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Typical FANG employee... Hates whiteboard interviews until they get into FANG, then thinks that anyone outside of FANG is actually delusional about their skills and must whiteboard to prove themselves worthy of handling the incredibly challenging world which is FANG-engineering. More likely that you've drank the kool aid that you are somehow special and smarter for working at a FANG...

> More likely that you've drank the kool aid that you are somehow special and smarter for working at a FANG... The USD $250K/year compensation, 0 YOE, fresh bachelor grad kool aid. Sure. Sorry, but some people in society are strictly inferior to others — defined by an age-adjusted combination of family, friends, health, finances, and happiness, both current and future trajectory.

"Some people are ... inferior to others." Don't you want to qualify your statement a little?

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#125

Post by isbvhodnvemrwvn »

b20000 wrote: post #104
kube-system wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe this works in big companies, but many small companies that I’ve worked at, you’d be caught, even lying on silly little things. The people reading your resume are the same ones you’re going to be working beside, and they’ll absolutely ask you about things you said you knew. And once they find out that you lied about your volunteering experience at your local little league team, your whole resume goes under the m…

what is it with lying on resumes? is that a thing? i went through some interviews a while ago. everyone assumed i lied on my resume without any basis to do so.

Very frequent, sometimes it's straight up lying, more often it's overstating what they did on the CV. To give you an example, when recruiting for a devops positions recently, during phone screen easily 1 in 4 people with several years of AWS experience on their CV had no idea whatsoever about very basic IAM concepts (e.g. roles vs users, that explicit deny always takes precedence over explicit allow).

That being said being civil and ensuring positive experience even for poor candidates is one of the fundamentals of interviewing. In the cases I described I didn't call them liars, I simply stated that for this role we expect them to independently support development teams, and that we consider IAM to be part of the fundamentals (it was explcitly listed in the job posting), and sent them some resources for studying up.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#126

Post by nemetroid »

xyzelement wrote: post #96
jen20 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> culture-centric companies (which are the good ones) This depends on what you are looking for.

> This depends on what you are looking for. I am open to learning other sides here because this is so foreign to me. What are the cases where you don't want to work in a place where people care about the mission and culture and want coworkers who do as well? What are the cases where you're happy working for the company whose attitude is "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skil…

> "we don't care who you are and what you value, as long as you have the basic skills and are willing to take what we pay, welcome aboard?"

Why just "basic" skills? How does that fit in with the rest?

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#127

Post by dan-robertson »

User23 wrote: post #97
xyzelement wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders. I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. Obviously, when you're happy where you are, money is part of the equation to get you to move, but making it seem like the o…

This is total loserthink. Saying literally that will assuredly get results. Mature managers and owners are well aware that hiring is a commercial act and that commercial acts are about money. Signaling that you’re willing to walk from the negotiation is key to getting good compensation. Strategically, you wait until they’ve already invested thousands of dollars in labor costs interviewing you first.

Right, if you have a good BATNA then you will actually be negotiating and not just bluffing.

I think lots of people get hung up on thinking of business interactions as personal ones, just because they have been interacting with people. Small businesses may act in more personal ways but most larger companies will generally be pretty faceless and make decisions they think are good without bearing grudges because people treated them like a faceless corporation trying to make good business decisions.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#128

Post by Philip-J-Fry »

xyzelement wrote: post #74
CalRobert wrote: post #26

I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. Paradoxically, I think I interview a lot better. I can steer conversation towards stuff I care about, and if they insist on being annoying, just thank them for their time and leave. Though this might just be a result of being pickier about who I interview with. If no…

>> "honestly I'm really happy where I am, but every man has his price, what can you offer?" does wonders. I would be very surprised if you say literally this and get results. No self-respecting company or manager is going to invest in talking to you if you describe yourself so overtly mercenary. Obviously, when you're happy where you are, money is part of the equation to get you to move, but making it seem like the o…

Why wouldn't that get results? If you're happy where you are then there needs to be a good reason to move. It's the interviewer/company's job to convince you to move, it's their effort being wasted.

If you're comfortable in your existing job then you are ALWAYS in the commanding seat during negotiations. If they want you then they will need to make an offer good enough. Otherwise you walk straight out and nothing changes.

Also, this isn't something you'd say on the phone. It's what you'd say during the interview, when they can't just hang up on you. You've done the interview, they ask "So, what sort of compensation are you looking for?", then you hit them with that.

If you show a weakness (a job you are actively trying to leave) then you will get lowballed. Showing that you have nothing to lose is a wall they have to scale and puts you in the best position possible for negotiations.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#129

Post by wpietri »

mattnewton wrote: post #32
CalRobert wrote: post #26

I've finally reached a point in my career where I have a great paying job and like it well enough, and really don't give a shit what interviewers think. Paradoxically, I think I interview a lot better. I can steer conversation towards stuff I care about, and if they insist on being annoying, just thank them for their time and leave. Though this might just be a result of being pickier about who I interview with. If no…

I wonder how much "interviewing" is really testing the kind of performance anxiety that people without other good offers yet have. I experience this too as I not just as I progressed in my career, but even within one batch of interviewing. I've always tried to batch as many interviews as I can. By the third interview I am feeling much less anxious and just perform much better and by the fourth or fifth I am nailing t…

This is a really important point. Many of the best programmers I've worked with are extremely conscientious people, and I think interview anxiety goes naturally with that.

When I'm interviewing people, I work very hard to put them at their ease and discount interview anxiety when I see it. Too many interview processes are tuned for confidence, not actual skill.

Re: Don’t do interviews, do discussions

#130

Post by Philip-J-Fry »

01100011 wrote: post #30

Depends on the role and the candidate. If I'm hiring for a lower skill position and the candidate has a strong resume I just might want to verify the resume and confirm they have a basic grasp of the relevant skills. If I'm hiring for a high-output FANG job, you bet your ass we're going to the whiteboard. Sure, I hate it too(on either side of the table), but it's not too much to ask to prove that you can think on you…

>but it's not too much to ask to prove that you can think on your feet and solve hard problems if that's what the job is.

Because the most common say to day issue is needing to think of an algorithm on the spot...

You hate it because you know that's not true. Yet you're using it.

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