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Elite Underproduction

troynikov.io

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Re: Elite Underproduction

#71

Post by zsmi »

kafkaIncarnate wrote: post #24
yaacov wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because of visas. In the US you can study CS at a good school now and make $200k straight out of undergrad. Makes a technical PhD a lot less tempting

Where are you getting that $200k figure? These are for not just out of college: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/computer-science-salary-S... https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Co... https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Master_of_Scienc...

The top bin in the first link was labeled $187K and the bins are at least $13K wide so it's possible there might be a data point at $193K (probably a bit higher) which is not so far from $200K/yr as a new grad, according to the glassdoor dataset anyway.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#72

Post by slt2021 »

civilized wrote: post #28
rayiner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The natural consequences of this will be China overtaking the US. Americans are not going to enjoy a world where they’re not the dominant power. Among other things they’re really going to hate not being able to print money for consumption free of consequences.

It's a concern, but a strong dollar isn't all roses and sunshine either. For one thing, it makes it hard for the American economy to compete in anything but the highest-margin industries. I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so, but their "arguments" are mostly just paranoia and sentimentality.

just look at the UK - lowering of living standards, wages, inflation across the board.

this is what's going to happen to the US, but on much larger scale and worse consequences

Re: Elite Underproduction

#73

Post by dang »

named-user wrote: post #10
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #5

The "academic meatgrinder" ignores the fact that a plurality of top PhD and MS programs' students are international, usually from Europe, India or China. There are deeper issues at play - like the fact that American K-12 schools often have an anti-intellectual culture and American culture as a whole does not place sufficient emphasis on doing well in school.

Which has what implications? Your comment is kind of meaningless drivel with abstruse language.

Name-calling like this will get you banned here. Can you please make your substantive points thoughtfully and respectfully?

Edit: your account has already been repeatedly posting comments that either break the site guidelines or are on the edge. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site more to heart, we'd be grateful.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#74

Post by [deleted] »

b9a2cab5 wrote: post #5

The "academic meatgrinder" ignores the fact that a plurality of top PhD and MS programs' students are international, usually from Europe, India or China. There are deeper issues at play - like the fact that American K-12 schools often have an anti-intellectual culture and American culture as a whole does not place sufficient emphasis on doing well in school.

[deleted]

Re: Elite Underproduction

#75

Post by ksaun »

thrower123 wrote: post #54
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the case then FAANG wouldn't be filled with Asians and engineers from ex-Soviet countries. The makeup of high paying tech companies does not represent in any way the makeup of the American population. I posit the reason this is the case is American culture and anti-intellectualism. If you look at top public school undergrad programs that don't practice affirmative action (UC's, UW) the programs are almost…

The smartest Americans go into law and medicine and banking, because the expected value is even higher for bright people in those fields than technology.

Maybe this is implicitly understood, but I don't think everyone's goal is to maximize income/wealth. That is, not everyone would calculate "expected value" in the same way.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#76

Post by convolvatron »

WhisperingShiba wrote: post #50
maayank wrote: post #15

> In the long run, creating more understanding of the physical world is probably more universally valuable to human flourishing than the far more parochial 'make money number go up' Citation needed. Moreover, dedicating resources to finance can be seen as dedicating resources to better dedicate resources. (I upvoted the article since it's interesting stuff)

I think the money number go up thing is not working, and I'm sure study of the physical world is part of the solution, but the biggest gains for our society seem to be in the way we structure our lifes. I think the coming decades, the study of eudaimonia will be key to our advancement as a species. I asserted that using money as a mechanism for gradient ascent is not working. I will walk you through my thinking, sinc…

i think you're absolutely right. one issue here is kind of 'streetlight' problem. money gets you a crude, and perhaps a counterproductive way of measuring value.

but what other metric are you going to use?

not an anti-communist, but so far central planning has shown itself to be equally ripe for corruption.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#77

Post by cblconfederate »

Don't tell me what, tell me how.

This is related to the modern version of academia, turned to a paper-making factory where mediocre professors toil away grant after grant waiting retirement. Still, young people will do a PhD just to see how deep the rabbit hole goes research-wise, even if they know that somewhere around middle life they'll switch to writing expensive software or overselling their skills to groups of developers. The problems are not well-defined. There is no grand scientific mountain to climb (despite the global narrative about climate crisis, photovoltaics and battery chemistry are not the sexiest of subjects). It does feel like science loses some of the mystery of previous generations and has become a lot more procedural. How do you motivate people to become mystics?

Re: Elite Underproduction

#78

Post by Robotbeat »

avsteele wrote: post #30

I disagree with the article's premises and conclusions, my perspective is that of a physicist who also knows many lapsed physicists. The premise seems wrong in that he disagrees with the elite overproduction thesis, but the professions he lists are " lawyers, MBA holders,..." and later to finance. But these are the professions likely to be zero-sum. So to me the article really is "I agree with the elite overproductio…

Part of the problem with Physics PhDs is they take too long. Median of like 7 years in graduate school. And they’re hyper-specialized, not as useful as the general education you get in physics undergrad.

Good argument for making more undergrad physics students but stopping the emphasis on graduate degrees.

Graduate degrees: 7 years of your young life focusing on a very specific topic that might be better spent applying the really useful physics undergraduate education in industry (or perhaps adding a couple more years in engineering graduate school beforehand).

Not to say that graduate school has no function. But The cost benefit is not nearly as clear as the education you get in undergrad.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#79

Post by robbmorganf »

avsteele wrote: post #30

I disagree with the article's premises and conclusions, my perspective is that of a physicist who also knows many lapsed physicists. The premise seems wrong in that he disagrees with the elite overproduction thesis, but the professions he lists are " lawyers, MBA holders,..." and later to finance. But these are the professions likely to be zero-sum. So to me the article really is "I agree with the elite overproductio…

> overproduction of physics PhDs relative to academic positions available

Why are positions researching physics so closely tied to academic positions? We probably don't need too many more physics professors but we sure could use more physics research. Or maybe better physics research. Either way, more/better physics discoveries.

That said, our scientific communication channels seem filled to the brink. So maybe we need more efficient scientific communication before we can make good use of more researchers.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#80

Post by thanhhaimai »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #68
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If that was the case then FAANG wouldn't be filled with Asians and engineers from ex-Soviet countries. The makeup of high paying tech companies does not represent in any way the makeup of the American population. I posit the reason this is the case is American culture and anti-intellectualism. If you look at top public school undergrad programs that don't practice affirmative action (UC's, UW) the programs are almost…

> If that was the case then FAANG wouldn't be filled with Asians and engineers from ex-Soviet countries. The makeup of high paying tech companies does not represent in any way the makeup of the American population. I posit the reason this is the case is American culture and anti-intellectualism. There are schools in every country. There are not FAANG headquarters in every country. The top candidates from around the w…

> The top candidates from around the world (who are willing to relocate) will emigrate to whatever country has the highest paying jobs. That happens to be FAANG companies in the United States right now.

This view is only correct if a) the US border is completely open and b) all the candidates around the world can speak professional English. We know that both the above conditions are false.

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