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Elite Underproduction

troynikov.io

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Re: Elite Underproduction

#21

Post by timkam »

101keyboard wrote: post #8

"In my line of work I meet plenty of lapsed physicists. These are people with physics degrees, even physics Ph.D's, who don't do physics. Instead they're usually some sort of programmer, or occasionally some version of a quant." I now PhDs that became High School teachers and they were some of the most gifted. I know PhDs that wait tables to make ends meet. I think if the guy has fundamentally not understood what Pet…

As somebody who's about to finish a CS dissertation, I sometimes think the best way to do CS research is to get a somewhat interesting software engineering job that allows for a 4-day week and to do research as a side project. Most likely, this gives one more research time than staying in academia (with the exception of the first Post Doc, perhaps).

Edit: This works for most of CS, but not for most of Physics, I assume.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#22

Post by danny_codes »

I find this kind of thinking kind of insulting actually.

As a guy with a physics degree who's doing machine learning (precisely what the author bemoans), I don't feel like I "lapsed". I have other interests besides physics. There's a lot of things that aren't physics.

> What they're not doing is advancing the human understanding of the physical world.

I don't owe you anything. If this is your dream than do it yourself.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#23

Post by rayiner »

civilized wrote: post #18
rayiner wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Calling it a “step” implies moving in that direction. But the problem in America is that the counter-movement against “anti-intellectualism” is just as anti-intellectual. More people are going to college, but they’re not majoring in math and science. We have an ever expanding ecosystem of non-rigorous *studies fields. These are arguably even less valuable than the cultural norms of Bible-thumping small towns. At leas…

The *studies folks are complaining loudly and bitterly of their debt and not having cushy jobs handed to them on a silver platter. In principle this should encourage future students not to take those paths. I agree that I don't like the direction we're headed, but hopefully the natural consequences of that direction will encourage people to revisit their ideological assumptions.

The natural consequences of this will be China overtaking the US. Americans are not going to enjoy a world where they’re not the dominant power. Among other things they’re really going to hate not being able to print money for consumption free of consequences.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#24

Post by kafkaIncarnate »

yaacov wrote: post #19
b9a2cab5 wrote: post #5

The "academic meatgrinder" ignores the fact that a plurality of top PhD and MS programs' students are international, usually from Europe, India or China. There are deeper issues at play - like the fact that American K-12 schools often have an anti-intellectual culture and American culture as a whole does not place sufficient emphasis on doing well in school.

That’s because of visas. In the US you can study CS at a good school now and make $200k straight out of undergrad. Makes a technical PhD a lot less tempting

Where are you getting that $200k figure? These are for not just out of college:

https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/computer-science-salary-S...

https://www.ziprecruiter.com/Salaries/What-Is-the-Average-Co...

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Degree=Master_of_Scienc...

Re: Elite Underproduction

#25

Post by pharmakom »

ch4s3 wrote: post #13
enchiridion wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t Thiel essentially anarcho-capitalist? So pretty far right and extremely (in the literal sense) libertarian. EDIT: anachro->anarcho

Anarchism-capitalism isn’t a exactly a right wing ideology. It’s really only useful to think of it that way in comparison to the traditional anti-capitalist flavors of anarchism.

Right anarchism and left anarchism only really differ in what they predict the steady state of anarchic conditions would be… and the culture of their advocates I suppose.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#26

Post by dzink »

Support steers choices for ambitious youth. Those MBAs are deployed to put ears on the ground and markets, to surface consumer needs, generate demand for products at companies, and vet investment worthy projects in the market. They steer capital and engineers where the work is valuable, that makes money, and that fuels the demand for more MBAs.

Researchers are building branches in the forest of knowledge, but to do it they have to bend to the will of an academic apparatus that is made to be self serving and zero sum in the hands of few who may or may not be worthy of the trust placed in them. There is also plenty of fraud and cheating globally among academic contributors. It’s almost like we need an HN for each branch or academic work, so anyone can contribute and see what’s novel, and the feedback is from vetted experts only, but that would put an undue burden on the experts and reduce their own productivity. There is room for an open collaborative solution somewhere, but it needs a lot of iteration to get it right.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#27

Post by dash2 »

danny_codes wrote: post #22

I find this kind of thinking kind of insulting actually. As a guy with a physics degree who's doing machine learning (precisely what the author bemoans), I don't feel like I "lapsed". I have other interests besides physics. There's a lot of things that aren't physics. > What they're not doing is advancing the human understanding of the physical world. I don't owe you anything. If this is your dream than do it yoursel…

He didn't blame the individuals, instead he argued that there's a social problem which society needs to solve.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#28

Post by civilized »

rayiner wrote: post #23
civilized wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The *studies folks are complaining loudly and bitterly of their debt and not having cushy jobs handed to them on a silver platter. In principle this should encourage future students not to take those paths. I agree that I don't like the direction we're headed, but hopefully the natural consequences of that direction will encourage people to revisit their ideological assumptions.

The natural consequences of this will be China overtaking the US. Americans are not going to enjoy a world where they’re not the dominant power. Among other things they’re really going to hate not being able to print money for consumption free of consequences.

It's a concern, but a strong dollar isn't all roses and sunshine either. For one thing, it makes it hard for the American economy to compete in anything but the highest-margin industries.

I'm not convinced that the rise of China will be so bad. Boomers and neocons want us to think so, but their "arguments" are mostly just paranoia and sentimentality.

Re: Elite Underproduction

#29

Post by Piribedil »

enchiridion wrote: post #4
pharmakom wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thiel is right wing but definitely not libertarian.

Isn’t Thiel essentially anarcho-capitalist? So pretty far right and extremely (in the literal sense) libertarian. EDIT: anachro->anarcho

I presume you meant anarcho-capitalist but I love the concept born from your typo : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronism

Re: Elite Underproduction

#30

Post by avsteele »

I disagree with the article's premises and conclusions, my perspective is that of a physicist who also knows many lapsed physicists.

The premise seems wrong in that he disagrees with the elite overproduction thesis, but the professions he lists are " lawyers, MBA holders,..." and later to finance. But these are the professions likely to be zero-sum. So to me the article really is "I agree with the elite overproduction thesis, I just don't think it applies to physics".

OK lets talk about that then.

If there is something that's gone wrong with pushing forward the boundaries of our knowledge it isn't a lack of bodies producing the standard unit of scientific knowledge: "the peer-reviewed publication". These have grown exponentially. I don't think I've seen anyone even argue the rate of knowledge increase is growing commensurately. It *might* be the case that new knowledge requires exponentially more people looking for it but that's a pretty different article. Personally, I'm skeptical more NSF funding would help.

I do agree with this part:

   Our apparatus of scientific education, especially mathematics education, is deeply flawed. It takes too long to bring young people to the research front, and it produces a false view of what doing science is really like.
But this research is in a academic setting, and there is definitely, unambiguously, an overproduction of physics PhDs relative to academic positions available. Letting more new students in the door wouldn't help anyone!
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