HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup • Hacker News Board

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#31

Post by token6053 » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 2:21 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #13

scandox wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In fairness her focus is much more on message and content than on correctness. I do agree that she would benefit from a copy editor but the main challenge a lot of business owners have is with what to say, rather than saying it with perfect grammar. So I imagine she may well be able to help people who struggle with that. Which in my experience is almost everyone in business.

At $600+ the prestation it has to be perfect grammar wise, especially for a service focusing on text. I was also annoyed by the wrong use of kahuna and begs the question and I'm not even a native speaker of English.

That's the thing: the copy does not need to demonstrate perfect grammar. All that matters is that the copy results in sales. Although I do realize that some may disagree with that sentiment. To each his own!

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#32

Post by token6053 » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 2:27 AM UTC

moritonal wrote: post #9

So, the startup is you offering your services as a contractor? That was the longest ad-read pretending to be a blog ever. Many times you used quotes without an author making attribution very difficult.

But I got you to read it, didn't I? :)

It's more like a product, less like hiring a contractor. The solution is the review, not me.

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#33

Post by token6053 » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 3:26 AM UTC

jfk13 wrote: post #7

Shouldn't this have been submitted as a [Show HN], given that it's basically someone promoting her own service?

I double-checked for you. Ultimately I think I was right not to submit this to Show HN since it links to a blog post. According to the HN guidelines, it wouldn't meet the criteria for Show HN based on that fact. But I got a chance to refamiliarize myself with the guidelines so thanks for mentioning this!

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#34

Post by unclebucknasty » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 3:32 AM UTC

This is flagged now--I assume because there's no "Show HN"?

But, just wanted to add that if you read that blog post, it's extraordinarily good at relating to its audience and the problems they face. The problem statement is clear and concise. The example email excerpts are well chosen and highly relatable, giving the reader a chance to connect his/her own experience in an almost first-person voice.

The itemized dead-end alternative paths are also relatable, and she does an excellent job of differentiating her offering from others the reader may have considered or with which the reader may have been disappointed.

In all, it demonstrates considerable proficiency in precisely what she's offering: conversion.

While the points about copyediting have some validity and some tightening could help solidify the offering, they are largely pedantic in the main.

The only suggestion I would offer is that, this being a new product, it may be difficult to grasp exactly what you're getting and where it leaves you (i.e. how it's actionable). A before/after-style case study or example deliverable could go a long way there.

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#35

Post by token6053 » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 3:56 AM UTC

unclebucknasty wrote: post #34

This is flagged now--I assume because there's no "Show HN"? But, just wanted to add that if you read that blog post, it's extraordinarily good at relating to its audience and the problems they face. The problem statement is clear and concise. The example email excerpts are well chosen and highly relatable, giving the reader a chance to connect his/her own experience in an almost first-person voice. The itemized dead-…

Good point! I'm going to include a sample review so the deliverables will feel more tangible.

And thanks for your assessment! It's certainly nice to hear that some things I aimed for landed.

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#36

Post by dghlsakjg » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 4:42 AM UTC

token6053 wrote: post #24

dghlsakjg wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grammar and spelling are table stakes for copywriting. A copywriter shouldn't sell themselves on it, or mention it, because it is an assumption that it will be good. When a copy writer is offering a service with bad copy, it casts into doubt their ability to write or edit copy. I ran this sentence from the article through google docs: >There was overwhelm of not knowing how to start a website, what pages to include,…

Hey, I get it. I totally understand if writing "there was an overwhelming feeling" seems more correct to you. But my goal is to relay a message as I hear it from the target audience which explains a lot of those strategic choices I made in the blog post (trust me, me and Google spell check were good friends throughout the writing process). But I try not to use Google spell check like it's a God. More like a helpful a…

Overwhelm is a verb that is being used as incorrectly as a noun in this sentence. It can’t be the subject of the sentence since it is a verb. This isn’t about what seems more correct, or about an accepted although incorrect usage. If you have examples of it being used in this way please do point to them.

Otherwise, realize that this is your target market giving you very direct feedback.

Edit: I love that you are responding and open to feedback. But, again, the mistakes that people are mentioning are not trivial, nitpicks, or a matter of opinion. You are the only person that search can find who has ever used the phrase “there was overwhelm of”…

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#37

Post by token6053 » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 5:20 AM UTC

dghlsakjg wrote: post #36

token6053 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, I get it. I totally understand if writing "there was an overwhelming feeling" seems more correct to you. But my goal is to relay a message as I hear it from the target audience which explains a lot of those strategic choices I made in the blog post (trust me, me and Google spell check were good friends throughout the writing process). But I try not to use Google spell check like it's a God. More like a helpful a…

Overwhelm is a verb that is being used as incorrectly as a noun in this sentence. It can’t be the subject of the sentence since it is a verb. This isn’t about what seems more correct, or about an accepted although incorrect usage. If you have examples of it being used in this way please do point to them. Otherwise, realize that this is your target market giving you very direct feedback. Edit: I love that you are resp…

I understand your point of view, truly. But I disagree with the premise that because I have used that phrase we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Essentially, the point of copy is not to follow each and every grammar rule. It is to make sales. Nothing more, nothing less.

Also, here's an interesting post from the Columbia Journalism Review: https://www.cjr.org/language_corner/overwhelming-overwhelm-w.... The author acknowledges that the word "overwhelm" has been used as a noun since the 1500s.

It may not be everyone's cup of tea. But it doesn't need to be.

So there are two truths here. Yours and mine, which can happily coexist :)

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#38

Post by margalabargala » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 2:32 PM UTC

slg wrote: post #10

scoot wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or who has missing punctuation, or poor formatting, or bad grammar, or incorrect use of idioms, or, or, or... Sure, "everyone's a critic" (and sorry to join the crowd), but if you're going to promote yourself as a professional copywriter you should at least have a grasp of the basics.

Language changes based off usage. Her use of "begs the question" isn't it original meaning, but it is perfectly acceptable today. It is similar to how the dictionary definition of "literally" now includes it meaning "figuratively". Continuing to complain about these things after society has moved on just makes you sound like an old crank.

On the other hand, as evidenced by this thread, there exist a nonzero number of people who still care about the old "correct" choice of language. If the author is targeting people in this demographic specifically, they should know better than to provide easy ammunition for people to criticize the article.

It might be fine in general writing, but if I'm a startup paying for an ostensibly well-written press release, I don't want to pay for something that spawns this exact discussion, rather than discussions about the content I want to communicate.

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#39

Post by dghlsakjg » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 2:44 PM UTC

token6053 wrote: post #37

dghlsakjg wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Overwhelm is a verb that is being used as incorrectly as a noun in this sentence. It can’t be the subject of the sentence since it is a verb. This isn’t about what seems more correct, or about an accepted although incorrect usage. If you have examples of it being used in this way please do point to them. Otherwise, realize that this is your target market giving you very direct feedback. Edit: I love that you are resp…

I understand your point of view, truly. But I disagree with the premise that because I have used that phrase we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Essentially, the point of copy is not to follow each and every grammar rule. It is to make sales. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, here's an interesting post from the Columbia Journalism Review: https://www.cjr.org/language_corner/overwhelming-overwhelm-w...…

And yet…

You corrected kahunas to cojones, and cleaned up the copy around nouning overwhelm so that it read like the article you found. Your original usage was clunky, and we were trying to give you valid feedback. You are sticking to your guns in the thread while making ninja edits in the copy.

Feedback hurts, but at the end of the day, we’re trying to help you. You keep saying it’s not about correctness, but about sales. What we’re telling you is that your incorrect grammar is losing you sales.

Re: HN post inspired me to quit my job and found my own startup

#40

Post by token6053 » Sun, Nov 07, 2021, 5:34 PM UTC

dghlsakjg wrote: post #39

token6053 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand your point of view, truly. But I disagree with the premise that because I have used that phrase we have to throw the baby out with the bath water. Essentially, the point of copy is not to follow each and every grammar rule. It is to make sales. Nothing more, nothing less. Also, here's an interesting post from the Columbia Journalism Review: https://www.cjr.org/language_corner/overwhelming-overwhelm-w...…

And yet… You corrected kahunas to cojones, and cleaned up the copy around nouning overwhelm so that it read like the article you found. Your original usage was clunky, and we were trying to give you valid feedback. You are sticking to your guns in the thread while making ninja edits in the copy. Feedback hurts, but at the end of the day, we’re trying to help you. You keep saying it’s not about correctness, but about…

I'd be crazy not to optimize the copy, for sure. I even mentioned that I would be doing so in an earlier comment I wrote here yesterday. I still don't feel that my original sentences were "wrong" per se but they were detracting from the original purpose of the post if they're attracting all the attention. And luckily, I've been doing this long enough that I was able to hit my sales goal even if that means I couldn't convert you. It just means I've got more work to do to become that good!

So thank you for taking time out of your day to share your thoughts. It's much appreciated! Have a good day!