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Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

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Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#271

Post by GaylordTuring »

skohan wrote: post #14
roenxi wrote: post #10

The basic idea of the economy is people can earn the right to energy, and then direct it to a goal of their choosing. The government making a value judgement about what type of commercial activity is worthwhile is extremely risky. Countries with innovative financial and credit systems have historically steamrolled those that don't have such innovations. We still don't understand the nature of crypto.

One role of government is to curtail negative externalities. If it's possible for a few people to profit by causing general harm through accelerating climate change, that would be well within the government's mandate to regulate against this. It's possible that cryptocurrency will be the future of finance. It's also entirely possible that crypto - which is incredibly expensive energy-wise per transaction - is actuall…

“It might be a competitive advantage to ban mining.”

I agree, but couldn’t this be said for a lot of activities? It might be a competitive advantage to ban the production of reality tv shows or video games or cars or steel. Is it really a good idea (or even morally defensible) for the state to make these kind of macro decisions (based on what might be best for the economy)?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#272

Post by VMG »

DonHopkins wrote: post #267
VMG wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It hat the same place as encryption for the same reason. And it is being fought like encryption was, for the same reasons.

Wrong. Nobody ever fought encryption because of its environmental impact and contribution to global warming and wasted energy, or because it burns lots of coal and causes cancer and lung disease.

Correct, they picked other excuses.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#273

Post by VMG »

morelisp wrote: post #229
VMG wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. The transaction costs are very low and you are free to choose whatever wallet you want.

> The transaction costs are very low That's why the government even preemptively allocated $150mm for them, I guess? > you are free to choose whatever wallet you want. Unless you want assistance at one of the official facilities, or the promised stimulus. Half the population is supposedly on Chivo. Defaults matter, especially if your goal is graft and not a sustainable and beneficial economic policy. I also notice yo…

why should I defend an autocrat?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#274

Post by louloulou »

alkonaut wrote: post #254
louloulou wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who's "we"? Maybe you don't need it. Personally, I don't need golf courses, professional football or a new phone every year.

Those do have negative externalities too. They are extremely regulated in how those externalities are handled though (how many golf courses are built, where, what their environmental impact is and so on). I don’t see a problem allowing e.g one Bitcoin to be mined but that doesn’t mean it should be any easier to set up a mining shop than to establish a new golf course.

Sure, all businesses are regulated within the jurisdictions in which they operate. But if I want to set up a mining machine in my house, I don't see how a government can say that running my heater is fine but running the miner is not.. are they monitoring my electricity usage down to the device level? How?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#275

Post by louloulou »

newaccount74 wrote: post #262
louloulou wrote: post #47

Ah, the electricity police strike again. You're allowed to use the electricity you paid for for some computations, but not for others. Seems logical and enforceable.

Some governments even force you to put insulation on your home or they won't give you a permit to build it! And then they only let you install an energy efficient furnace! And evil EU even forced appliance manufacturers to stop selling inefficient washing machines! The EU has a long history of regulating energy waste, and outlawing crypto is a logical next step.

Thank god governments exist to decide when I'm using my own money too wastefully. Funny how the portion of my money they already took and spent is never spent wastefully in their eyes.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#276

Post by VMG »

ilammy wrote: post #224
VMG wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it interesting that it is never a "waste" if it is the Pentagon that is polluting and poisoning the world. But if there is a technology that threatens government power, suddenly it's suddenly all about the Earth. For many people, Bitcoin is the only reliable technology to prevent their savings to be destroyed by inflation and to evade cruel sanctions. Your opinion has no value to them.

Compare and contrast this with military spending. Arguably, all of it is pure waste since you wouldn't need it in the first place if people weren't using violence as a means to resolve conflict. And yet here we are, so states have to allocate certain spending to maintain healthy military balance and support the walls of peace, so to speak. Even if the military is never going to be used offensively, to seize profit fo…

The military industrial complex has destroyed millions of lives and poisoned counties for decades to come. The abolition of the system that is perpetrating these crimes should be the top priority for any environmentalist and humanitarian.

Governments ability to print money is a critical component of this system.

Bitcoin can run on completely emission free energy and end the era of money printing.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#277

Post by GaylordTuring »

newaccount74 wrote: post #262
louloulou wrote: post #47

Ah, the electricity police strike again. You're allowed to use the electricity you paid for for some computations, but not for others. Seems logical and enforceable.

Some governments even force you to put insulation on your home or they won't give you a permit to build it! And then they only let you install an energy efficient furnace! And evil EU even forced appliance manufacturers to stop selling inefficient washing machines! The EU has a long history of regulating energy waste, and outlawing crypto is a logical next step.

What is energy waste though? If I get more happy by mining Bitcoin than playing computer games, is it okay for me to use the energy I would have used for playing to mine instead?

I think that about 95 % of the activities that humans do professionally are a complete waste of time. Does it follow that I should be for banning these activities?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#278

Post by alkonaut »

louloulou wrote: post #274
alkonaut wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those do have negative externalities too. They are extremely regulated in how those externalities are handled though (how many golf courses are built, where, what their environmental impact is and so on). I don’t see a problem allowing e.g one Bitcoin to be mined but that doesn’t mean it should be any easier to set up a mining shop than to establish a new golf course.

Sure, all businesses are regulated within the jurisdictions in which they operate. But if I want to set up a mining machine in my house, I don't see how a government can say that running my heater is fine but running the miner is not.. are they monitoring my electricity usage down to the device level? How?

Can you grow a ficus but not cannabis? Are they monitoring your gardening to the plant level?

The answer I suppose is that a) what’s legal isn’t necessarily what can be enforced and b) just like no one would find your single cannabis plant, this is probably about industrial level mining where authorities have insight through permits for construction, permits for yearly emissions, use of cooling water and so on.

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#279

Post by baby »

wruza wrote: post #135
pkz wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an important fact. A lot of people think crypto currency==bitcoin. It would be a lot easier to have meaningful discussions on the impact on society if more effort was spent on helping people understand the different types. Maybe Bitcoin will fade away eventually and some other type of currency will be the monetary lingua franca?

A lot of people think crypto currency==bitcoin Because economically that’s true. There is no crypto (even ETH) which could stay at its price when BTC goes up and down by a magnitude. Of course they are correlated, like INTC may correlate with APPL when markets go crazy, but this link is too rigid for all crypto under bitcoin even when it’s relatively quiet. I don’t understand an exact reason behind this, but I believ…

Have you heard of stablecoins?

Re: Swedish government agencies say energy-intensive crypto mining should be banned

#280

Post by CalRobert »

roenxi wrote: post #242
CalRobert wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The role of government is also capturing and charging for negative externalities.

It isn't. There are lots of negative externalities that the government doesn't get involved in.

Sure, but there are plenty where it does. Noise ordinances, pollution controls, maximum fishing or hunting takes, etc. would all be examples of this.
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