It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta • Hacker News Board

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#41

Post by gpderetta » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 3:51 PM UTC

edflsafoiewq wrote: post #35

deng wrote: post #23

Yes, that's why you still have these 'ubuntu_12' folders in the Steam installation, since they have never updated this in the past 9 years. So in reality, native Linux development has pretty much failed, and they have put all their money on Proton. That is probably the right decision from a business perspective, but it's pretty much a defeat nonetheless.

What's wrong with it? Having the Windows APIs turn into a portable abstraction layer is certainly amusing, but having wine sitting underneath the program is really nice (essentially for the same reason a VM is). For one thing, winedevs are way better at linux support than random gamedevs.

Yesterday my son wanted to play Overlord II that I had purchased ages ago. It has a native linux version, and I remember 3-4 years and a few distro/steam updates ago it worked fine. Yesterday it would hang on startup. I didn't want to spend an evening debugging it, so I flipped the proton override on steam. After a quick reinstall, it worked immediately and flawlessly.

So, I don't care whether a game is native [1] or run on an emulation layer as long as it works and performs reasonably well and, most importantly, it is supported.

[1] the reality of course is that many, but not all, native ports still run on some sort of buggy, proprietary translation layer.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#42

Post by pengaru » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 3:52 PM UTC

MaxGanzII wrote: post #10

Steam is a trap though, no? You buy software, but if you leave, you lose it all. Is that correct? there's no way to retain what you've bought?

Valve/Steam does not require games distributed through its platform to use their SDK/DRM in any way. It's up to the individual game developers if they set such a Steam a trap.

Valve doesn't even give an outright monetary incentive to do it. i.e. Valve's 30% cut doesn't turn into 10% if you link in Steamworks.

Though one could argue there's an indirect monetary incentive created by locking away all the platform/social features behind a wall accessed through their proprietary library. But last I checked the DRM aspects of that library could be ignored while using the rest of the platform. It does automatically stay updated though, so they could turn Evil and force DRM @ initialization if they wanted, hypothetically speaking.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#43

Post by jterrys » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 3:54 PM UTC

peatmoss wrote: post #33

gravypod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve does quite a bit more than just proton. 0. They manage the most popular games store in the western world. 1. They provide a community forum for your users. 2. Host downloads of games (sometimes 100s of GBs). They distribute the content all across the world and handle region specific laws about what can be sold, etc. They host content at edge so downloads are super fast. 3. Process refund requests. 4. Have one o…

Apart from a few games purchased on GoG, everything I buy is on Steam. It’s been a very consistent experience for a long time. My first Steam “purchase” was me plugging in the CD code from a copy of Half-Life purchased ~1999. Everything I’ve purchased since then is playable in minutes—most of it playable on Linux. The killer feature of Valve / Steam for game developers is customer trust. For me, that trust has transl…

Shoutouts to GoG. I'll buy games off of them even if they're on Steam. Making old games compatible and offering DRM free downloads deserves respect.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#44

Post by thioordc » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

bartwe wrote: post #31

thioordc wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I rarely ever “like” a company but Valve has done so much it’s honestly amazing. The 30% they take is soooo worth it for developers who don’t have natural Linux support.

In that case i'd like a refund as we ship a native linux version ourself

Maybe I wasn’t clear but if you dont have native support then it’s really worth the 30%! If a game does it’s more debatable. I also always try to buy the DRM free version if it’s available!

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#45

Post by Knufferlbert » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 3:55 PM UTC

bnegreve wrote: post #24

I_Byte wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my point of view the store model simply is more convenient for consumers and worth the extra price. I know that I stopped pirating games, music and movies when I started using Steam, Spotify and Netflix.

> I know that I stopped pirating games, music and movies when I started using Steam, Spotify and Netflix. But is it a causal relation? You probably have a steadier income now than you had back then.

Don't know about I_Byte, though I could have written what he has written.

I can now actually afford games (in the quantity I consume them) now, so that question is fair. But thankfully the video landscape fractured, now you better have NowTv, Netflix, Prime and Disney+ and you still can't watch all. I've started pirating again after 10 years or so of complete abstinence. So I think it's causal (if you have money)

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#46

Post by pdpi » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 3:56 PM UTC

bnegreve wrote: post #24

I_Byte wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From my point of view the store model simply is more convenient for consumers and worth the extra price. I know that I stopped pirating games, music and movies when I started using Steam, Spotify and Netflix.

> I know that I stopped pirating games, music and movies when I started using Steam, Spotify and Netflix. But is it a causal relation? You probably have a steadier income now than you had back then.

With games, an important part of the equation is DRM. I prefer buying (DRM-free) things from GOG where possible, but steam has provided developers with a decent bit of DRM that is not too intrusive for consumers. There's plenty of older games from before Steam became dominant that I refused to buy because of their draconian DRM solutions.

I have to say that Spotify completely changed the way I listen to music, and I would really struggle to go back to buying individual albums.

I think of the three, movies are the only one where the "more disposable income" part of things is the dominant component of why I changed behaviours.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#47

Post by thioordc » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

smallpipe wrote: post #4

thioordc wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I rarely ever “like” a company but Valve has done so much it’s honestly amazing. The 30% they take is soooo worth it for developers who don’t have natural Linux support.

Reaching a single digit percentage larger user count in exchange for 30% of your revenue is questionable accounting

Yes but that’s not what I said! If you make a game that doesn’t have native support I will not buy it. 70% is much bette than 0%! I’m sure if they had the choice between no fees or 30% fees and Linux support they would take the zero but they don’t.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#48

Post by olyjohn » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 4:00 PM UTC

hn8788 wrote: post #37

deng wrote: post #23

Yes, that's why you still have these 'ubuntu_12' folders in the Steam installation, since they have never updated this in the past 9 years. So in reality, native Linux development has pretty much failed, and they have put all their money on Proton. That is probably the right decision from a business perspective, but it's pretty much a defeat nonetheless.

I think it was Supergiant Games who said that because Proton is good enough, they're don't plan to provide native Linux versions of their games in the future.

Does the game run well in Proton? Then who cares if it’s not native. What’s wrong with using Windows APIs to run games on Linux? Let’s take Microsoft’s API, embrace it, and steal that sweet sweet gaming marketshare.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#49

Post by deng » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

edflsafoiewq wrote: post #35

deng wrote: post #23

Yes, that's why you still have these 'ubuntu_12' folders in the Steam installation, since they have never updated this in the past 9 years. So in reality, native Linux development has pretty much failed, and they have put all their money on Proton. That is probably the right decision from a business perspective, but it's pretty much a defeat nonetheless.

What's wrong with it? Having the Windows APIs turn into a portable abstraction layer is certainly amusing, but having wine sitting underneath the program is really nice (essentially for the same reason a VM is). For one thing, winedevs are way better at linux support than random gamedevs.

One has to remember what Valve tried to achieve. If I remember correctly, Microsoft back then announced that the Microsoft Store would be an integral part of the upcoming Windows 10. Seeing the huge amounts of money Apple/Google/Valve were making with their stores, they openly played with the idea to only allow application installations through the Microsoft Store, most importantly games.

So Valve tried to break the Windows monopoly on games by creating a native Linux SDK and releasing the Steam Machine, which was based on Ubuntu. The goal was to make Linux a first class citizen as a gaming development platform, not just something to run an emulation layer. The Steam Machine failed, because it simply wasn't very good. Valve quickly lost interest in native Linux and let the native SDK rot away into obsoletion. Fortunately, Microsoft being Microsoft, the Windows Store was (and still is) a terrible platform, so pretty much nobody is buying games there (except for Minecraft), and you can still install anything you want on Windows.

So of course you can say that you don't care if it runs natively or in an emulation shim. It would have been nice if Linux had become a game development platform and not just a kernel with a Windows API layer on top. So in a way, Linux' success here is similar to Android's: Yes, it's technically Linux, but not really.

Re: It‘s been 9 years since Valve rolled out the Steam Linux beta

#50

Post by LegitShady » Sat, Nov 06, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

cma wrote: post #39

gravypod wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve does quite a bit more than just proton. 0. They manage the most popular games store in the western world. 1. They provide a community forum for your users. 2. Host downloads of games (sometimes 100s of GBs). They distribute the content all across the world and handle region specific laws about what can be sold, etc. They host content at edge so downloads are super fast. 3. Process refund requests. 4. Have one o…

> They allow you to generate steam keys (at no cost to you) and sell them on your own website. Only if you charge the same as Steam, i.e. you can't pass the 27% (still pay payment processing) savings on to customers, unless it is a limited time sale.

Well yes, they don't want you to generate code sand then sell for less than you sell at steam because that's a suicide level business model for them. But you can still sell the codes yourself without cost to you. I don't understand why what you're saying is relevant.