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Never update anything

blog.kronis.dev

201–210 of 288 posts

Re: Never update anything

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do you want AWS to do here? Keep running software that won't get security updates? That seems a bit wild to me. PostgreSQL is open source, so they could keep patching the old version with security fixes. Or... they could keep using just the community-supplied free-of-charge version and pocket all the money from not maintaining security patches themselves.

I agree AWS should be contributing back to the open source projects and they are listed as a 'sponsor' (though not a major one) on the Postgres website. https://www.postgresql.org/about/policies/sponsorship/ But AWS should not have to take responsibility for providing indefinite updates to every version of every managed open source project it operates. The only way I could see this working would be if AWS charged the…

> The only way I could see this working would be if AWS charged the holdouts the cost of keeping them supported.

That actually sounds like a great idea. They could charge more for use of older versions, so that people could calculate their tradeoffs, and migrate when they decide themselves.

Re: Never update anything

#202
post #98

"When your company won't be the first to market, because about 20% of your total development capacity needs to spent on keeping up" In the world of JS and Typescript this ratio looks more like 80%. I swear that node hipsters at my last job spent four out of five of their working days wrangling with dependencies or their transpilers, linters, packagers, bundlers and whatever the hell else needs to happen to actually m…

Am I doing typescript wrong?

Setting up a new project is a 5 minutes task. Npm init, then install express, typescript and some useful middleware. Install eslint then eslint --init and choose airbnb style guide, and I'm off to go.

And if I take over an existing codebase it just takes npm install then npm run dev and I can start adding bugs.

With react and vuejs it's even easier with nextjs/nuxtjs.

I never fight dependencies.

Yet I sometimes read stories like yours while typescript/nodejs has only been the smoothest experience I've ever had.

Re: Never update anything

#203
post #98

"When your company won't be the first to market, because about 20% of your total development capacity needs to spent on keeping up" In the world of JS and Typescript this ratio looks more like 80%. I swear that node hipsters at my last job spent four out of five of their working days wrangling with dependencies or their transpilers, linters, packagers, bundlers and whatever the hell else needs to happen to actually m…

Am I doing typescript wrong? Setting up a new project is a 5 minutes task. Npm init, then install express, typescript and some useful middleware. Install eslint then eslint --init and choose airbnb style guide, and I'm off to go. And if I take over an existing codebase it just takes npm install then npm run dev and I can start adding bugs. With react and vuejs it's even easier with nextjs/nuxtjs. I never fight depend…

Of course you won't have any problems with an empty hello world. Now develop it into a medium to big real-world project and let it sit for a year or two, then try to update dependencies (because you need new functionality or to fix some vulnerabilities).

It's never easy. For some projects it took me about a week to do this (because of a breaking change in some library that's used everywhere that you are forced to update).

I just spent another two hours fighting with breakage because of a library that shall remain nameless. The author introduced yet another major breaking change in a minor release. I'm thinking of migrating to a hand-rolled solution, it probably makes sense in the long run.

Edit: just for comparison, the backend for this project is written in Java/Spring. I recently updated it from a five year old Spring version (plus a dozen dependencies from the same time frame), and it took less than an hour to fix everything. This is simply unthinkable in the JS world.

Re: Never update anything

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you can have a Java backend that's more or less totally decoupled from the frontend, great. Java and it's tooling are fine, and it's easy to be productive writing in Java. However, my only experience as a frontend dev with Java backend system has been truly nightmarish, because the backend processed all the frontend assets and rendered them. If anything, this is what helped me burnout, because everyone on my team…

Yeah so the dev machine shit specs is something we fight SO HARD against in my bank. There s not many thing we can fight, but our 10 core SMT xeon with 128G of RAM for everyone in the team was a fight worth fighting. Yes, it took 2 years of them putting us on a new VM cloud systems after another before they gave up, us spamming them every say "intellij freezes", "I cant build in less than 10 minutes and the traders a…

If you are using IntelliJ, do not use the JBR JDK 11 as the boot JDK for the IDE. Since I switched to Azul Zulu 15, IntelliJ flies.

Re: Never update anything

#205
post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The forced changes to the init system and desktop gui are far more radical than anything Microsoft or Apple ever did. The init system change was also due to the GUI people. GNOME told everyone they must adopt SystemD or else you can't use GNOME anymore. It made people so unhappy there were forks, protests, and even suicides. If a system administrator woke up from a 15 year coma, they would have no clue how to use any…

Bah. If a sysadmin woke up from a coma, systemd would be the least of their worries, since it has a comprehensive manual, working backwards compatibility for most standard interfaces, and is in most cases much, much easier to deal with than what was before it. They might scream in horror at how containers often get (ab)used though.

More like compound tragedy. The world's largest search engine used to run on a single computer. Now the world's smallest app has its own kubernetes cluster.

Re: Never update anything

#206
post #12

As a red teamer/pentester, this is an attacker's dream. This has to be a joke.

Auto-updates are an attacker's dream too. Also, this disclaimer in the very first sentence of the article: > "Here's a fair warning: this article is reductio ad absurdum"

> Auto-updates are an attacker's dream too.

Why?

Re: Never update anything

#207
> Actually, i don't have enough time to do my day job, learn new technologies [...] > > Ergo, i cannot update. Ergo, companies cannot ship features AND handle all of the updates [...]

Your time is limited and you can't get more of it. That isn't the case for a company. There, time == money, because if their employees don't have enough time to do all the work, they can just hire more to do the rest. But because they're only interested in growth and not sustainability, most of that money goes into developing new features, not keeping up with security updates. The vast majority of large companies could very easily hire one engineer and task them exclusively with updating legacy dependencies. And the smaller ones could instead re-task half their dev team for a month each year.

Re: Never update anything

#209
post #98

"When your company won't be the first to market, because about 20% of your total development capacity needs to spent on keeping up" In the world of JS and Typescript this ratio looks more like 80%. I swear that node hipsters at my last job spent four out of five of their working days wrangling with dependencies or their transpilers, linters, packagers, bundlers and whatever the hell else needs to happen to actually m…

Having always been fullstack even in my current large traditional bank, I see both codebases in Java 6 and maven poms that are a paradise to change (and a java 8 upgrade is often trivial and sufficient to get most of the nice candies you really need), and yarn/npm frontend projects that cant be even rebuilt two weeks later, everyone insanely writing auto updating version descriptor (^2.0.4 with the ^). I cannot under…

> I cannot understand what idiot thought it d be fancy cutting everything into mini dependencies that update every day without you knowing made by amateurish hipsters who transitive depend on each other like their life depended on it.

I'm not sure you're thought things through in your comment, and that you are being fair or reasonable.

No one cuts "everything into mini dependendencies". You have dependencies you reuse. That's it. When one of those dependencies gets updated, say to fix a bug or a security issue, your package manager of choice handles it for you without any issue. Still, if you do not want to fix bugs or vulnerabilities in your code then you are free to pin them all and move on with your life.

At most, the JavaScript or NodeJS crowd needs to have a serious talk about standard libraries and third party lackages, such as whether using packages such as rimraf is desirable.

> and yarn/npm frontend projects that cant be even rebuilt two weeks later

You only experience that sort of problem if you're incompetent in how you manage your dependencies.

With npm you can a) pin major/minor/patch versions of specific packages, b) save your package-lock.json file which specifies exactly which dependencies you use. If you free-float any dependency then that's something you chose to do.

With JavaScript/NodeJS + npm you only shoot yourself in the foot that way if you purposely aim at your foot, remove the safety, and press the trigger really hard.

> And I m very against transpilers and linters which I try to avoid for sanity (...)

Complaining about linters because they test your sanity is a major red flag on your approach to mundane coding tasks. This, and your casual criticism on everyone else's code, leads me to suspect that you really need to do some introspection.

> I kid you not we have an entire team in charge of one small frontent management tool for a pretrade backend, they literally spend 99% of their time justifying why they wont change it, and 1% begging me to join for a week to reorder their column or put a new button...

Based on your comment and on my experience with similar projects, I suspect you're either oblivious and/or leaving out important bits of the story just to continue plowing with your humblebrag, or you're succumbing the need to be hyperbolic.

Frontend development has to deal with far more details and constraints and requirements than any backend task. Frontend is what both clients and PMs and executives look at, and the tiniest changes like resizing a button has deep implications on the business side of things. Furthermore, it's both harder to automate tests and their tests need to be more extensive.

Thus any change, no matter how small, is a uphill battle.

It's beyond me how someone who is so hard on their entire team ends up showing such weak understanding and insight of the problem domain. I know that on the internet no one knows you're a dog, but let's not get silly here.

Re: Never update anything

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah so the dev machine shit specs is something we fight SO HARD against in my bank. There s not many thing we can fight, but our 10 core SMT xeon with 128G of RAM for everyone in the team was a fight worth fighting. Yes, it took 2 years of them putting us on a new VM cloud systems after another before they gave up, us spamming them every say "intellij freezes", "I cant build in less than 10 minutes and the traders a…

I remember 6 years ago working on financial company. We have to deploy our app into weblogic and everytime we have to change something, we have to recompile it again and restart the app server. It took almost 5 - 10 minutes from start to ready to test. I thought that's because of the code but turns out all of our notebooks are using shit HDD. When I use my own PC with SSD, it flies with less than 3 minutes and after…

In retrospect, I hadn't thought of that but it makes perfect sense. I believe I ended up accessing my laptop's local server from my personal mac, so it would have still been the bottleneck. I may have asked a similar question on my way out lol
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